Hello all,

I'm jet-lagged in San Francisco and that gives me the opportunity to give you another update . I'm here for the Game Developers Conference, though truth be said, I haven't seen anything from the show yet nor have I participated in a single seminar. Instead, I spent most of my time in hotel rooms showing off project D & E. I've got D running on an X360 dev-kit I brought (which due to the transformer I've had to bring is horribly heavy) and for E I've got a video on my brand new Ipad (which I curse about now having seen the IPad 2, I should've waited err.. anybody want to buy a brand new Ipad ?).

Over the last couple of days I've been showing both games to a variety of distributors/publishers, trying to make sure that when either one releases, it'll be available worldwide on day 1, and while they all understand the success of Divinity II, it's still stunning to see how few publishers understand RPG's and the RPG market in general. Don't read that as there's no interest in E & D, on the contrary, I can actually confirm that both games have secured funding so they'll be happening, but it just struck me as strange how many of the larger publishers approach the RPG genre as something alien.

I mentioned that both E & D got funding, so that puts me in the luxurious position that I don't have to beg around for money, which is a welcome change, and given that background, I decided to dedicate some meetings to trying to persuade some people at the very large publishing houses of a longtime dream of mine, the what I would call Very Big RPG That Will Dwarf All Other RPGs. My modus operandi consists of showing them with how little resources we made the Divinities (contrasted with some of the other big RPGs budgets), telling them what we could do with the same kind of budget the other very big RPGs got, and then offering them to engage our services for making the Very Big RPG That Will Dwarf All Other RPGs. I explain what I'd put in this Very Big RPG That Will Dwarf All Other RPGs, occasionally even talking in detail about (oh horror, oh shudder) gameplay mechanics, and then try to put up the visionary face that shows that this thing will be the real deal, the game that will be the GTA of RPG's, the thing that will propel the careers of all involved to summits the likes they never dreamt of, in short, the best thing to happen to gaming since (fill in at your own leisure)

I'm afraid that I have to report that it's not working out that well, and that our next two games won't be the Very Big RPG That Will Dwarf All Other RPGs, but I did want to mention that I tried The feedback I got was "we don't do RPGs", "we did an RPG once and all involved got fired", "it's a very hardcore thing, an RPG. We're not into hardcore that much anymore","we're just not active in that space" etc... Now in some cases you need to read that feedback as "well, we just don't have cash and we're looking for developers we don't have to pay" or "we've got cash and we'd like to keep it so the last thing we'll do is spend it on a RPG" to "it hasn't got the words social, free to play and micro-transactions in it, so it's bound to be a failure, what the hell is he thinking", but in other cases it's really a case of not getting it, which is a pity.

There's a strong tendency not to make RPGs among the publishers that haven't made X-loads of money with a RPG in the past, and a strong tendency to stick to the IP's they have among the publishers that did make money with RPGs, meaning that there's very little chance some independent developer will get the opportunity to make something big and new in the RPG space. Given that observation i.e. it's not going to come from publisher interest, I guess somehow we'll have to find a way to make the Very Big RPG That Will Dwarf All Other RPGs ourselves (after which I'm sure there'll be plenty of publisher interest )

That braindump aside, project D (the one I think I mentioned was quite atypical) is gathering much more interest than I expected, so I'm quite happy about that. And coming back to the Very Big RPG That Will Dwarf All Other RPGs, I silently hope that between D & E and continued sales of DKS, we might actually generate enough revenue to fund the Very Big RPG That Will Dwarf All Other RPGs ourselves. That'd be cool. (On a sidenote, what would also help is if people would stop releasing all those mindless hack & slash things - I think we've seen enough of them by now and they are market destroying)

Anyways, I wanted to write more but I need to rush or I'll be late for my first meeting of the day which I'll probably consecrate to the Very Big RPG That Will Dwarf All Other RPGs. And should I ever manage to get it sold, you'll be the first to know

Cheers from San Francisco

This is so sad :< Casual console market kills old-good PC genres :<

Does DragonAge II count as a hack an slash? (played 10 mins of demo and deleted, good job EA)

I'm amazed that you've hit that attitude - I'm not sure I agree with Kein that console markets are killing RPGs. After all, XBox has Fable, the Playstation has Final Fantasy and Nintendo has Zelda to name just a few.

Although I do miss serious flight simulators (which the console market definitely seems to have killed).

If anyone can make a VBRPGTWDAORPG, I think you guys can. I'm actually looking forward to your next release (what ever shape it may take) more than I am to Elder Scrolls 5.

Got to dwarf them all!

NEED TO DWARF THEM ALL!!

I'll take it. Half-price. Final offer.

Why would anyone in his sane mind buy iPad? There is a lot of much better things :P

You're all victims of cheap mass PR!

I thought you had to be a beatnik to own Apple. Or a hipster. Or a yuppie. Or an artist. Which one are you, Axel?

What would an artist do with *THAT* ?

None of the above! No Apple for me then.
I actually agree with Kein (), I don't understand the appeal of iPads (or any Apple products, for that matter).
Still, half-price...

I wanted to write something else, but it was politically incorrect.

On topic. I hate it when businesses start revolving around buzzwords.

In my philosophy (and yeah, I xcall myself the only IT-Philosopher far and wide ! ),
a game ceases to be a game, if the things that make a game a game are removed - and replced by something else.

This "something else" can be various things. "Mass appeal" is just one example.

In my philosophy, if a game is developed the way that it is meant to create good sales - or, to be more specific, more profits - then the "game" thin in a game is removed and replaced by ... well, so that this game ceases to xist anymor, and becomes instead a "tool to generate profits".

A tool. Not a game.

The "fun factor" can still be there, but imho the fun factor is an integral part of what makes a game a game.

But ... still a "fun factor" or *ny* factor that makes a game a game can be exploited.
Exploited to gain more mass-appeal, for example.

And - from the point on ... well, the act of exploiting something in itself renders the thing that is exploited (in)to a tool that can be exploited, so to say.

It's a bit difficult to explain what I mean. If I exploit something, the act of an exploitation implies that the exploited something is not seen as the thing it is in itself, but rather as something that can be used, and that means, to be exploited.

Hence my thought/philosophy that if a game - or any thing - is being used as a a convenient tool, then it most certainly loses something of what it was meant to be.

Therefore I see some danger in how's the industry going on today. It treats games as tool for income, and humans as objects (I once had made up a philosophy of what i called "Objectiovism", wherein all things - and especially humans - can be degraded into objects that can be used (as tools), and thus this "Objectivism2 is in regards to humans nothing but de-humanization).

It's imho a difference if we say

"Games by Gamers for Gamers"
or
"Games by Businessmen for Gamers"
or, even worse
"Games by Economists for Gamers"
and the worst of it all, imho:
"Games by Hedge Fonds for Gamers"
and
"Games by Lawyers for Gamers"

See the differences ?

Uh, English as the second language ... How am I supposed to explain what i mean if I can only find words like "thing" ?

Great update. You need to go see the show some. Promote DKS and D & E, if there's enough done to promote yet? I myself buy more RPG's than anything, and I find it a shame that such a wonderful genre is hurting. And I'm sorry, but Zelda has never been an RPG, as beloved as the series is to me. Fable used to hold certain good RPG qualities, but as much as I enjoyed 3 I'm afraid that now the saga is turning slowly into a Microsoft cashcrop.

Anyway, I have very high hopes for D & E. And I have most certainly been trying to help you guys promote. I've always had my studios I stuck by through the years, and you guys somehow kicked and fought your way in there. Please, years from now when everyone begins to see the sun again, and you guys do start making decent money and can fund things, don't sell out and take the RPG out of your RPG's. Or atleast do your absolute best to avoid it. And don't make your games easier. I laughed at most of my deaths in D2:ED. Hard. Guess that's all of my rambling/demands for the moment. Have to go to my World Civ II class. College. Mmm.

Great update, thanks.


Oh hello, EA


Would this be an Ultima like game?

Well, moddability raises sales, ya know!

You guys should offer us to buy the game before it is finished, like Notch did with Minecraft or guys doing Interstellar Marines are doing it. I for one really liked Divinity 2 and want to support you, so I would buy the RPG that will dwarf them all from you now, even when it is who knows how many years from being finished. I don't think I would be alone. That way you could finance the game yourselves, making it as uncompromised as possible.

It is a shame big publishers suck, but luckily they will not be as necessary anymore in the future.

@Paulcz, same here, I'd put money down for a pre-order or pre-sale.

Or a non-Apple tablet would likely be even better.

Good to hear Divinty II has/is selling well since I last checked.

Regarding publishers, you may want to check with publishers that do 4X Turn Based Strategy games if you have not already. Those tend to be targeted at hard core gamers as much if not more so that RPGs (it depends on the game). Those that publish games in other hardcore genre that do not usually have 'broad appeal' would also be worth talking to.

If I ever win the lottery (and I try all the time), I will call you to tell you that I will personally fund the 'Very Big RPG That Will Dwarf All Other RPGs.'

Are you sure one jackpot would be enough to create such awsomeness?

I enjoyed the update Lar. Haven't seen a developer try for the biggest thing ever since Origin Systems was around. I miss them.

Enjoy your visit to our western coast.

*hint, hint* Does that make it official that my initial assumption that the game was going mobile, is correct?



So, you did have a meeting with EA lol



Its always been the case, 'show us you've already done it and we'll give you the money.' What's sad is many times all you need to do is recruit an industry leader to be your CEO and you get all the funding you need. Its no better guarantee of success, but often times it equals money.

Of course, you could do it the internet way-- mindshare (or was that Minecraft) FTW. Create the most awesome demo known to man, YouTube it, get a billion views and generate mass buzz. Oh yes, the dreaded spin machine.

It is sad that's new generation don't even know&care about such legendary studios as Black Isle :<

Sitting in the airport waiting for my connecting flight, so I've some more time to continue. One key realization which is often forgotten in these types of fora discussions is that in the end it is about there being a market for the game you're trying to make, and that market being sufficiently large to pay for not only the development but also all the costs involved in releasing the game. That sounds straightforward, and I often get the impression when browsing through forums that most gamers realize that, but what they usually don't realize is exactly what kind of numbers are involved. That's not so surprising, given the amount of distorted numbers that appear in the media. It's in vogue of late to claim you sold a gazillion units whereas in reality you only sold a fraction of that and I think a good games journalist might actually have a lot of fun (and hits ;)) if he'd care to investigate what the reality is behind the numbers.

In the best case, they are the sell-in (not sold-through) numbers, in the worst case they are flat out lies. The reality is also that it's pretty hard to get a hold of these numbers, which is what allows for the inflation of numbers in the first place (as they're not publicly available), and whatever industry charts there are only give you but an impression of the real figures, not the actual sales. They're sometimes of up to 50% off (in retail), but of course you do get a relative idea (which is how I know that some people are making some very big claims which aren't matched by reality at all)

Right, I've got to break off again - a couple of calls happened during the writing of this post and now I need to run I am trying to make a case with all of this, but it's quite elaborate, so I'll need to continue it another day. I wanted to make the bridge by providing you with some sales numbers/costs of running a studio/genre numbers to show you why the entire hardcore aversion exists among publishers, but it'll have to wait.

Cheers from London

Lar, Welcome Back in Belgium !


I hope it was all worth the efforts !



Cheers,
Michaël (playing now your great Dragon Knight Saga, .... for months !!! )

Another interesting and awesome update. I love when you do these.

And I'm in the same boat with the iPad. Damn Apple!

It's a shame how developers these days think that "dumbing down" everything in RPG titles is the way to go. While it may get you higher review scores with the casual press, you'll get a backlash from fans of your game. Mass Effect 3 better have some RPG elements.

Thanks again for the feedback. I've been away from this forums for some months now, but RPGwatch makes me in contact with larian news and i checked there was a new update and i'm always very very interested in them.


About your posts, i'm glad (no, i'm actualy thrilled and smiling when i read your words) about you now having enough funding for your 2 next projects. Must be great for you as a boss to know you have your employees a garanteed job for a long time and that your dreams and plans WILL go ahead.

1st thing that i must understand from your words of success is that Divinity 2 actualy gave you some credit in the industry. You are no longer a company nobody knows and you fought your way up in this bloodthirsty market and build a starting reputation for yourself. Hats off and congratulations ppl.

2nd thing i must deduct is that your projects shown were already in a somewhat good stage of development meaning you already have a firm grip of what you WANT to create, wich makes me happy.

3rd thing i think about is that if your project D "non-ortodox" is geting a lot of attention is because its far from an RPG, because RPGs wich are risky and non-ortodox are having a lot of problems geting funding (as you said it yourself), so i might risk saying its an action game.

4th Thing i conclude is that your other project didnt have so much interest so it must be a more classical RPG.


Anyways, i'm realy realy glad you are geting success especialy since i've "followed" you guys since divine divinity and i always considered you guys a little bit part of my life.

Cheers.

If you have an iPad now, then wait for the iPad 3. You know it is coming.

Another reason I really like Notch and Minecraft - he is 100% transparent about how many copies he sold and how many people are registered.

I have to say you made a big mistake, really good game your missing out on.

Great news about funding! personally I can't wait for the next Larian game! Other than the Witcher I haven't got a clue when we will see another proper RPG, Deus Ex and so on all got the console treatment (FPS/H&S) so another game like Divinity will be something to truly look forward to!

Can't say I am surprised by the attitude you encountered, this has been a problem for years as they seek an ever increasing market and sadly the lowest common denomination is the most profitable one, many a game has been dumbed down to meet their criteria and we all suffer for it.
I hope that with your funding comes the freedom to realise your dream and not the "Mass Effect" requirement to dumb it down or restrict it.

Great to hear the news! Now I just have to hibernate till you release the titles

you're counting DA2 out for being hack and slash when DKS is even more so?

The DA2 demo is linear and straight combat; DKS is not (the demo or the full game).

Well, the Dragon Age II demo was pretty terrible.

Deus Ex was always an FPS. I'd argue that Human Revolution has more RPG elements than Deus Ex. This isn't another Invisible War we're talking about here. To write off Human Revolution in such basic terms is disrespectful of the hard work that's gone into the RPG elements on display in the game. Eidos Montreal has done something that Warren Spector and Harvey Smith couldn't get done with a Deus Ex sequel.



At least Divinity II was a good and challenging hack 'n slash RPG. The demo for Dragon Age II was awful.

I'm thinking if I hit the 160m lottery we'd have maybe half of what we need in the bag!

Holy *bleep* are you trying to make a James Cameron movie?

DA2 isn't RPG, it's action. It's linear as my... cough... whatever. This thread isn't about DA2, please, do not make it another junk thread.

Lar_q

And where is the numb3rs about D2 sales? :P

Trade secret or something, maybe.

I think the issue is that DA2 is trying to sell itself as a "true" RPG.

ah yes. at least DKS makes no false pretense.ill wait till i actually see DA2 (didnt bother with demo) but if the initial impressions are spot on, ill probably pass.

I'm wondering what features an RPG to end all RPGs should have according to Larian. Even an attempt to make one worthy of that name would be something.

Thanks for the update, Lar! And to the other Larian staff, thanks for the laughs!

While I hope you do get funding for more games, I also hope it doesn't come at the cost of the quality and brilliance of your games! Divinity and Ego Draconis were awesome, and are on my "top shelf" of RE-playable games. Continue to make great games, and we'll continue to buy them. By "we" I don't mean just Larian fans in general, but "we" as in my husband and my "nearly old enough to play Divinity series" TWO children.... and because we're such sticklers about not boot-legging, we'd each have our own copy.

So, there's four times how many ever games along the lines of Divinity that would be purchased. Math, right? 4 x 3 Divinity (1 DVD--first purchase, 1 CD--because Hubby wouldn't share 1 DVD with me, and 1 GOG version, so I could pass the disc to my son--unfortunately, GOG version had a game killing problem). So that's, uh.... too high of math for me! I'll let you do the math for that. Now onto more math. I purchased Divinity 2: Ego Draconis as soon as I saw it on the shelf at the US Navy Exchange ("wooo hooo! Larian has a 3-D game out! MINE!" *run to cash register*). Played it through and told Hubby, "You'll need to buy your own, because this is mine." So, okay, that's 1 purchase of D2:ED on DVD. Then the add-on came out, and I read that ED was extensively made better (which I can't wait to try out on this new laptop... not a Apple brand *wink*), thus I decided to spend the 'extra' money by purchasing DKS directly from Larian Shop. Well worth paying full price so far, especially given some computer problems (not game related)-- love the ability to revoke license so that I could transfer the game to the new computer... and revoke again when I thought I was going to have to send new computer in to get fixed under warranty (um... fixed it myself).

Okay. I think I had a point. Oh, yes, now I remember.... Keep up the great job! Wasn't too keen on Beyond Divinity, and couldn't play it through. But Divine was great and I did love ED (except those blasted platforms!). I try to believe that quality will trump quantity any day of the week, because quality keeps us coming back for more!

Great update. Looking forward to hearing about the whole numbers thing. I know I love playing the game. I know games cost a lot, even when ordering directly from the studio, so it would be nice to get a glimpse of "behind the scenes" (wow, literally!).

Rest well and get back at it... your fans are waiting to adore you. Okay, we're not... we're waiting to play more games, and in the mean time, we're playing what we've already got!

Now.... how to follow this thread....

All best,
~~CierraShore
p.s.
This really is a great little community here in these forums!

it would be nice to get a glimpse of "behind the scenes"

In February of 2008 a news show went to Larian Studios for an interview about game industry investment / tax breaks, and shot some background footage of the studio, including some early shots of D2:ED. Here is a link to the video (8.2MB), or an alternate link on Rapidshare. There is a general translation in the equally old topic Stunned... (Larian didn't know they were going to air the story that night, or include any game footage).

Thanks, Raze. The "Stunned" thread had some pretty funny bits in it, and it also helps me to understand this 'community' more. Now I am aware that probably most of the posters here are not native English speakers/writers (as I'm sure British would say about Americans)... I find it truly amazing the general respect that comes across in the English forum.

Even your witty comeback w/ "google" and "wikipedia" were able to be... enjoyed, and not taken to be harsh, but in the humorous way it was (I hope) meant.

I've also discovered something else, after my husband introduced me to cRPG's... I seem to prefer 'indy' games made in Europe! Aside from Larian (favorite studio, and I'm not just saying that because of this thread or forum base), I did enjoy the Gothic 3 game. I had never heard of the Gothic series, I just bought the 3rd game, and even with all the 'lagginess', still enjoyed it (I think I was able to crochet a full blanket during lags and loads!). After the full community patch came out, and utilizing that nice little feature of "test mode=true," I played through as quickly as possible to discover the story. I enjoyed the story of the game, the combat mechanics definitely weren't easy (such as they were in Diablo II: LoD style), the music was beautiful, and I liked the variety of... races... presented. The English voice-acting could have been better, but it was great to hear a familiar voice (Sebatian in Gothic 3 is Deckard Cain in Diablo)-- don't recall his real name.

Shortly after playing Gothic 3, I saw Ego Draconis on the shelf and snatched it up in a hurry and played it... and it was while playing it that I discovered these forums! I had already played Divinity several times, but never knew there was a 'community' for it or other games. Although I knew that people didn't like the ending of ED because FoV hadn't come out yet, I didn't mind the ending, because I knew that FoV was coming out.

All in all, the interaction of the studio with the fans/players and the players with each other is pretty cool. Also neat that players come from across the globe, and can give input from cultural perspectives.

Um, I don't think I really had a point to this post! How embarrassing! Oh, wait, I did have a point. It was basically to say thanks-- so, in case it didn't come across in all that wordy stuff above, thanks for your contributions, Raze. And thank you Larian for interacting with your dedicated following.

~~CierraShore

You mean they want Mommy and Daddy on the computer so they can't bother them during that time ?

Hehehhe... could be. I think it's more like they want to see what Mommy & Daddy are talking about, because the children have gotten out of bed to 'spy' during our playing of games. Both of my children (well, I guess they're almost 'adolescent' now) ask constantly, "When can I play '__fill in the game__."

The games Hubby and I like the most, we quote lines from ("Show me your goods," from Gothic 3, "DIE!" from Diablo 2:LoD, and hashing out the story of the skeletons from Divinity... I try very hard to not get into Folo's pigs, but really? That's funny!), and this piques their interest all the more.

What would be nice is for each of us to have a computer, and each of us to have games that we can each own-- but that's just too much money! I have decided, though, that my son is now old enough to attempt Divinity (the first). He has been reading books like crazy lately, so I think he'll be able to follow a story-driven game, instead of just a hack-and-slash game. He memorizes 'maps' very, very quickly, so often becomes bored with most games. Yup, he's at the age that he can play it... but he's gonna have to earn the $5 or $10 that it costs.... I'm a mean Mommy, apparently, in that I preview things before allowing my children to have them, and they have to earn what they get! Not a traditional American parent, which I do hope turns out to be a good thing.

Anyway... can't we all just play games and not be bothered with responsibilities??? Oh, what a great fantasy that one is!

~~CierraShore

So nice , one BIG gaming family ...
And who does the washing-up ?



just kidding

Whoever does the cooking has to wash dishes! I had to institute that because the children decided they like cooking, leaving me with a HUGE mess. . . if you're gonna play, then ya gotta take some hits. In real life, that means if you're gonna cook, you're gonna also help clean up!

But methinks you're referring to a different kind of washing.... *wink wink*

~~CierraShore

I love the idea of a massive RPG... we do not get enough of them. I love playing RPG's that take 60+ Hrs just to do the basics and if you do everything it hits 100+ hrs.