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#151649 - 01/13/04 02:24 PM [History] Stories from the early development.
AlrikFassbauer Offline

Registered: 03/10/03
Posts: 19669
Loc: Rogue Squadron

Here I'll show you just another bit from the Development of The Discussion on the Interaction with Objects.

I'll show this discussion only as a part - to illustrate what weird thoughts we had and hhow the communication process was going on. No other parts are seemingly in my own collection.

The presented part of the discussion began at May, 18th, 2000 and ended May, 22nd, 2000.

Most names should be familiar to you - they all became characters in

The interesting thing is, that at that point Dante and Bronthion weren't working at Larian. They came to the team much later.

Major Fatal :

Goodies on order!

I'am in a nice mood and hunger for some help, me and an other artist or burdened with the combinned object thing

(example take one potion mix it with the other get new potion, or nice explo!, or person put him on the rack get scroll of information,or wood together with hamer, nails and rope, make a bow,....and so on!
everything you can do with a mixture of objects!
the deal is like this, you name it! we make it!
So if you ever had the feeling damn it, it sure would be cool if you could do this with objects, or to have this....in a game but never saw it happen, consider it done!

but first you have to let me know about it and gues what the meaning of this topic is!
order now, one time oppertunity!!!
deal of the month, give two ideas get the third one for free! special ideas will come with free shipment! no scam garanteed, larian quality aproved treatment!
start your brainy processors and lets get ready to ruuuuuuuuumble ...

(overactif employee)
arrrg, i should never mixed those buffo's with the pschyco and instead stayed with the mentath's only!

Anastasia :

Hi Major,

well Lar should be happy with your hyperactivity I guess . You want to become ´employee of the month´, don´t you ?! Except for that you shouldn´t be burdened with such inferior BS. You should be working on ROOFS !!!

OK, let´s go on to the "ordering" part.

First of all: please make sure any object combination is not totally out of touch (except easter eggs), i.e. make it so that one CAN think it up. I don´t like these adventures where you can or have to combine an umbrella, a radio and a cup to create a car (little exaggerated). It should still make sense and at the same time be challenging. IMHO this should be the general rule.
2nd rule: let NPCs hint us at what is possible. In case one isn´t a hardcore adventure or RPG gamer it would get too hard.

Then make mixing potions easy. M&M is a good example here. You just have to rightclick one potion over another and that´s it -> Good.
Mixing incompatible potions should lead to them blowing up in your face.

A few more:

1) Let objects be affected by spells/magic and/or weapons. Would be cool to see a house´s interior smashed to pieces in combat.

2) Potion A + Potion B + a rag = Molotov cocktail

3) Poison + objects/weapons (is already in, isn´t it ?)

4) Pipe + weed = drug (bonus in combat or sth. like that) or Weed + paper = cigarette (effect is up to you)

5) Let us go fishing -> Wooden stick + string/rope + hook (or arrow) = fishing rod

6) Saw those bee hives in a screenshot. Let us use the sticky honey as glue (e.g. to repair items)

7) Ore + a fireplace = repair weapons (quality of repair depending on skill)

8) Knife + bamboo stick = flute

9) Water + hops + malt = beer

10) Graves + bucket + barrel + time = wine

11) Let us use chalk to mark our way in dungeons (paint the walls or the floor) or a long thread/string

12) In case we play a male char -> let us use chalk + female clothes to e.g. bewitch a guard that won´t let us pass

13) Stick + (white) scrap of cloth = ´peace´ flag to enter or sneak up on an enemy camp
Or paint + scrap of cloth = to fake an enemy or ally banner

14) Many many more. Can´t you give us a little more specific detail on what exactly you´re looking for ? An object list wouldn´t hurt as well . We don´t know what´s in so how are we supposed to know which combinations could be done ?

Major Fatal :

yohoo, yep already you infest me with so many ideas!
great continue....
Thats exactly what im looking for anastasia! things you mentioned there, (for the objects that already in (these are a lot) is not the problem), its the objects that i somehow forgotten that i'm worrying about.
And therefor this topic, and see it already started many of the objects mentioned by you i totally overseen like the (water hops malt=beer, knife bamboostick=flute,...

so keep rolling the honey flow,
it helps me great...

Arhu :

4) Potions ok, but no drugs. Or take the consequences.

* wire, small piece of wood and cheese = mousetrap

Uh.. can't think something up right now, maybe later.


Bronthion :

I think you should be able to create unique objects, objects nowhere else found in the game (as a reward for learning the alchemy talent).

The ingrediances should be kind of logical, but you should be able to get them (in a shop for a price, or in nature for a fight). A paralyzing potion/gas needs the poison from a giant spider for example. So if you can't buy it, the man in the alchemy shop should give you the hint to look in the cave nearby. For others you might need the eye of an eagle, a hair from a bear, certain plants, herbs or roots, or maybe something extraordinary like the blood of a vergin, etc.

Examples (please tell me if you need more hints for proper ingrediances, too):

* weapon poison (creme or liquid)
* gaseous poison
* smoke-bomb
* creme that supresses all smell/odor (to fool animals, enemies who could scent you otherwise)
* target potions (increase long-range weapon skills)
* creme that increases the durability of weapons.
* itching powder
* paralysing powder
* acid, to open locks, for example
* powder/gas of hallucination
* healing of illnesses
* illuminating liquid (as replacements for a torch, or a torch spell)
* love potions (for a little romance in Divinity)
* glue, e.g. to block a door
* liquids to let metals rust (surprise for knights)
* exploding liquids
* potions for increased speed/invisibility/fire resistence/cold resistence
* gas of slow motion
* gas of fear and terror
* potion of shrinking

Bronthion, der dunkle Halb-Elf
Bronthion, the dark Half-Elf

Ragon der Magier :

Just briefly i have only those (which is quite (un)funny, because when i heard having this great oppurtunities of almost any object manipulating i thought, "Wow, cool feature, that´s how it should be" - and now this! ):

at least
tie several ropes together for whatever purpose
tie a rope to s.th. for climbing over a wall or similar
tie rope to s.th., perhaps a cart or wagon to tow or other a gate to tear down
a ram or even building some out of several material (rope, yep again! , nails, wood of course, maybe cut from a nearby forest before)
(Hey i´m getting myself going )

You know? - it´s all about ropes!

Ragon, a mage wondering why nothing of his own profession will enter his mind

For now - until we meet again!

P.S.: Oh, not really "objecting" this one, but i hope there will be a clever journal, maps book and a spellbook where new spells can be inserted when found in written or other form, brings some atmosphere and to date all features discussed were more of general value. But now i think it´s time to support my own profession in a bit

Patriarch :

Well I'm rather fond of twig technology.

a larger twig : a club
cord + twig + box : trap
cord + twig : a quite primitve bow
twig + hole : some security for your fingers
twigs + fire : a campfire
campfire + some more twigs : cooking place
some larger twigs + rope : a raft
hole in the ground + twigs : a larger trap
a large, straight twig + dagger : spear

thats all for now

never trust a smiling Dragon


Anastasia :

2 more.

1) Hammer + tomatoes = Ketchup = Fake blood -> could be used to play act like dead or badly wounded

2) Mouse traps + put them in your pocket/backpack -> to prevent NPC stealing (really good NPC thieves should still be able to steal)

Tutamun :

What potions are there?

drugs -> decrease stats! Say no to drugs!

healing + mana potions -> heals and gives mana but not as effective as two seperate potions.
icrease strength (temporary) + poison -> explosion
two different poisons -> explosion
acid/poison + weapon -> rusty weapon (only for certain kinds of poison or acid based poisons)
salad + rabit -> happy bunny
mice/rats + cat -> happy cat, time to play
meat + carnivourous animal -> may calm down the animal? distract from you?
flowers + meat -> "poisoned" meat that leads to animals that eat it fall asleep (like in Monkey Island )
knife + string + stick + bowmaking skill -> bow (no nails required)
bird + ranged weapon -> feathers
knife + stick + arrowhead + string + feathers -> arrow
fire + metal + some form -> arrowhead, spearhead, small knife, (depends on form)
knife + string + spearhead + stick -> spear
knife + big bone -> club
no knife + big bone -> club
knife + small bone -> knife, arrowhead, spearhead, hook for fishing
dead animal + knife -> skin, food, bones
skin + knife (+ string) -> sling, bag, pants, anything made out of leather
sling + stone -> weapon
fire + arrow + wool + oil -> burning arrows
oil + fire -> burn baby burn
oil + water + fire -> Oh yeah! Place this in a house and watch soemone try to kill the fire with water
river + poison -> lots of food and no fish left in the river
flowers + ladies from sreenshot -> mariage

I think I'll have to stop now. Its late and my ideas start to get...

Major Fatal :

Keep them coming!
All of you are a great help!

Dante :

(The over evident ones: so evident that you guys did not mention it )
- weapon+animal (several times applying weapon to animal) -> meat
- empty bottle+liquid -> full bottle
- full bottle+person -> empty bottle
- person+horse -> mounted person (a lot quicker)

Okay, now for the serious ones:
- meat+fireplace -> food (I do not like to eat raw stuff)
- person+toilet -> ...(ahem)
-pen+paper -> note or letter (leave message for another guy)
- leather+needle&thread -> backpack

About the ropes:
- DEFINITELY implement the ideas of Ragon, and as well:
- tie someone up so you can save him for (interrogation) later (kinky ) or so he is found by the guards,...
- tied person+weapon = torture
- tied person+weapon = untie person (don't know how you will distinguish between the two)
BTW: tied person: can be carried

-water+person=wake up person
-furniture+doors or windows->blocked windows (to defend yourself against...)
-lumber+hammer+nails+windows/doors->the same
-torch+some fire accelerator+something inflammable -> fire (burning down the house). Fire accelerators: burning oil, wax, paper (large quantities), magic powder (magnesium, dynamite,...)
-water+bucket+something in flames->stop fire, save the object

I would be careful in producing weapons. It is really a craft, for people spending their whole life making it, not for adventurer types. They can only repair. But, if you say, don't bother:
- sticks+metal+fireplace -> arrows
- club -> club (weapon)
- club+stone -> hammer (weapon)
- metal+fireplace+a lot of time -> sword
- etc...
Difficult as well:
- tissue+needle&thread->clothes (to go in disguise, to dress up as a noble,...)
-tissue+iron+fireplace+LOTS of time->ring mail
- etc... (go to UO for ideas)

Again to the disguising stuff:
-specific clothing+person -> other attitudes of NPCs (LStory related)
- ashes/dirt/charcoil+person -> dirty/camouflaged person (detecting him gets more difficult)
- water+soap+dirty person->clean person

Happy inventing!

[This message has been edited by Dante (edited 19-05-2000).]

Bobby :

>> Hammer + tomatoes = Ketchup = Fake blood -> could be used to play act like dead or badly wounded <<

Say Anastasia, isn't that kind of similar to the silly car example? Unless the tomatoes were especially resilient, you won't need a hammer, now would you.

>> club+stone -> hammer (weapon) <<

I guess this is assuming at least stone hammers are in the game. For an iron hammer it should be something different, such a club+iron to be consistent with your example.
Also, do you mean the club (weapon)? Wouldn't some form of thick pole do? Hell, why not make the pole yourself if you can't find one: with an axe and a knife and some skill.

>> cord + twig : a quite primitve bow <<

Do you mean one of those mini "stone" shooters? The cool thing (for Lar anyways) is that those can have unlimited ammo. There are plenty of stones, nuts and whatnot lying around. I expect this one to be implemented by now.

A minor complaint of mine to the ideas so far is that the combinations are too specific. It would be nice to think of alternate combinations as well, such as I have pointed out with making a hammer.
Even the tied person+weapon is too specific: what about nails, needles, feathers, chocolate .

As for having same combinations with different results: why not let an option box pop up and let us select which way to go.

[This message has been edited by Bobby (edited 19-05-2000).]

Tutamun :

I really love this topic
Bamboo + feather/wool/cotton + needle -> blowpipe (=blasrohr?) (more effective if you put the needle in poison first... but then you should blow and not breathe in while using the blowpipe )

fishing rod + lake/river -> no fish or an old shoe
fishing rod + wurms/meat/bread + river -> fish
glass/mirror + stone/hammer -> broken glass
stone + hammer -> sand
water + herbs (+ food) -> tea/potion/poison/soup
notice + nail + hammer + door/wood -> notice nailed to door
pole + head of enemy ->
hair + spit + bone of an ancestor + doll -> voodoo doll
voodoo doll + needle -> ouch!
voodoo doll + fire -> OUCH!
water + priest -> holy water (that is if he blesses it) -or- wet and angry priest
apple + person + bow -> money from the spectators if the arrow sticks in the apple... otehrwise... run!
pig + apple/food -> happy pig
pig + (food + yeast/barm) -> exploding pig
pig + (food + broken glass) -> dead pig after a short while
meat/food + broken glass -> this is better than poison and much more painfull
flour + yeast + water + fire -> bread
gold + string + person -> annoy person by pulling gold away when he wants to pick it up
flowers + female -> positive attitude towards you

Carrying water or other liquids:
Bucket, flask, glass, ... get water from river, bucket with water, spring, ...

Burn baby burn:
straw/wood/oil/candle/torch/hair/clothes/fur/cotton/curtains + fire/burning object -> Object burns (Different objects take longer to start burniung and burn for different durations. Massive wood doesn't start to burn imediately if you hold a torch to it.)

Making your own weapons:
I consider making your own weapons only a gimmick. It's nice but it has no practical use. Without the appropriate skill in manufacturing weapons you would only get some sort of very simple weapon that doesn't do much damage. With the wrong wood and string your bow wouldn't even be able to shoot an arrow strong enough to hurt someone.

If you want to go for Ultima you would have to have different weapon making skills that improve if you use them often. For some weapons you would also need special equipment. Very hot fire (bellow) + anvil + hammer + tongs + iron to make a sword for example.

Breaking up Objects:
string + wood + knife -> bow + knife
But what if you want to use the string on something else? Can you take it off the bow again and get back string and wood. The wood could then be used to make fire.

Tutamun :

Pat + Tut -> more ideas
rope + rope -> net
net + rope -> trap
net + river -> fish
net + river + bad luck -> wet hero *g*
spade + knife + poles + twigs + leaves -> trap
door + bucket + water -> fun
axe + trees + rope -> bridge
rope + tree + wood -> swing
Alix + Pat + Tut -> even more ideas
maize + torch -> popcorn
water + soap + guards -> good chance to escape
wood + candle/wax/tar -> torch
wagon + torch ->burning wagon
burning wagon + push + monsters -> a big mess

antx :

4 chairlegs + 2 boards + some nails -> the 17th chair!!!

sorry, couldn´t resist... ;-)

But the "hammer + tomatoes = ketchup" is cool. We´ll make a cutscene for that... >8-)

Ragon der Magier :

Dagger + pen + parchment (+ reading/writing skill) + door -> notice daggered to door (remember "Hook"?!? )
empty vial + the specific recipe + listed ingred. + other, if necessary, tools (e.g. more vials, fire place, pots, alchemistic laboratorium) + appropriate skill (alchemy, herb lore) -> correspondent potion

For larger magic rituals (only in connection with a quest including a certain quest element requiring this ritual and at the same time providing necessities like a certain ritual place or point in time - "when the moon is half, and at the time of `blalba´ the demon of night" - or an important artefact which can be found during this special quest, in short all things that are not given in the rest of the game, so to speak are unique to this quest, not excluding them being part of a later installments of games, and thereby not for regular use basis like the other magic):
ritual knowledge + special places + point of time + paraphernalia + certain skill + magic NPC aid, maybe even a guild/group you have to convince to help w/ the ritual (perhaps involving them in the war initially, inciting future support by them, ya, maybe giving your main effort to save "Two-River-Land" the decisive tweak in your favour with that ).
Quest could be the banishment of a fearful and mighty demon invoked by a certain war party, devastating a certain area and filling the people with panic.
There will be a quest provider, adversary groups trying to stop the hero, NPC along the way aiding info or stuff ( refer to the above given) necessary for fulfilment of the quest etc. pp.

Oops, this went a bit out of topic - but then, i didn´t want to out Bobby as a liar...( )

for appeasement:
net + branches -> fish trap (i like fish )


Ragon, the Mage

[This message has been edited by Ragon der Magier (edited 20-05-2000).]

Ragon, der Magier :

Hey, thanx, antx (HOHO!)!

I knew there were tomatoes in, but Marian didn´t want to believe me, and said it were copper plates!


Arhu :

Hello Mr. Twig, Mr. Rope, Mr. Poisoner and Mr. Tomato! Hello everyone!

You're all crazy, y'know? Ok, I'll try to add some things.

* rope + bucket ~> well known aid to pull up water or other things out of wells. Or help careless children who fell into one of them... That is, supposed there are wells in villages.
* milk + container (eg small bowl) ~> Yummy.
* piece of wood + sharp carving tool ~> Figurine (for whatever purpose - sell? gift for someone?)
* huge block or similar things + door ~> block door (if no key is present) ... oh, just saw that Dante uses furniture for that..
* well + stones + more stones + even more stones ~> raise water...
* mouse + princess ~> scared princess
* long stick ~> primitive fighting staff...
* stick + metal chain + stick ~> some kind of weapon (forgot the name)
* rope or nails/hammer + broken fence etc. ~> repaired fence
* herbs/potions/antidote/healing spell + ill/injured/poisoned creature ~> healed creature (I want to heal others, including animals! )
* sticks + cords ~> ladder
* ropes or lianas + ropes or lianas ~> rope ladder
* sunflower + whatever ~> sunflower pips (?)
* sunflower pips, fir cones, a watering place or a magical flute + good heart ~> lure birds and other sweet little creatures. (I want to play with them...)
* moonstone/dream catcher + sleep ~> evoke dreams / catch them (what else? ~ fortune telling?)
* uh.. + hm.. + err.. + well.. ~> what?

Whew, recreation time.


Major Fatal :

I think we just redefined development
(i mean who needs concepting if they have forum power! I say power to the forum, yeaa!

What basically means im very glad with the input here, keep them bringing in!

17 chairs, huh? so you mean the other 15,002 ones ar not in the game!?

Risini Visinimi :

Here is somting smale I had time to thought off:

If you put broken glass into a tissue, it would make good for shooting whith a stone-sling! On Armor it wouldn't be effective, but on skin it would make mutchmore damage then a ball.
If you would put broken glass on the floor it would be a smal trap and it would make noises to walk over it. (Alarm)

More later!

Will you never forget how to laught!

Risini Visinimi

Dante :

Hey, that's right! In RPGs we sometimes kindof "boobytrapped" our camping place to be alerted of intruders without having to stand guard whole night. Something like:
- bells+rope+apply circular around camping place -> chance that the agressors trigger the bells
- spell: glyph of warding is possible too af course


Ragon der Magier :

Ah yeah, Arhu!
I can see right before my eyes:
A sweet little white-cat is standing at an ocean´s shore. He shoves a huge stone (compared to the creatures small size) into it, then more stones, and even more stones...
Ya, i bet this will work!

When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch

#151650 - 01/13/04 02:26 PM Re: [History] Stories from the early development.
AlrikFassbauer Offline

Registered: 03/10/03
Posts: 19669
Loc: Rogue Squadron

Lar :

Version 3


Hmm, don't worry, read to blame to understand


Something's still wrong with the ZAP² coefficient. More research required.


Lar :


Aha, it's the ZIP that's corrupt !!!

Eurezap !


Alrik Fassbauer :

Err...what does this all actually mean ?

Have you gone "weird" ?! (I DID'NT use any other word !!!)

MFG (Mehr Fürs Geld), Alrik.

EvilRussianScientist :

He is obviously "different" today

Lynn :

Not only today !

Marian :

Actually he quite normal...compared to the other days.

rat :

Wheheheheh Marian =)
Who cares anyway, he pays the disk quota.

Goemoe :


perhaps he has remembered being a dog and now tries to pratise a little barking...

ZOEP WOEF ZAP WAF not much difference, what do you think?


Arhu :

I want my money back! Nothing happened. Nothing at all. I got myself a copy of that all so praised button, and installed it to the deepest den of my harddisk to be undisturbed when I decide to let it dive the universe into the void. Nothing!
I hammered the button like a crazy sewing machine and as hard as my small paws were capable of, but I couldn't make this stupid little button suck the world!
And now my mouse is broken, and I don't have something to play with anymore. (Certainly that was too much for it. *sigh*)

I guess you have to work much more on your ZAP button. I haven't even heard the ZOEP, after my continuous tries... All that got zapped was my mouse. Silly button, ho ould ant to use it if it can't zap anything at all?? he.. Hey look! No I broke my too! ahhh!! Damn ap button. ll it is good for is driving cts cry. See? nd hve lso gone! I hte tht P button!!

(Mybe my copy was dmged someho? I hope you ill releseneversionsoon,Lr!)Meo...rhu

[This message has been edited by Arhu (edited 11-02-2000).]

Goemoe :

j !


Lar :

Er, well Zap World was licensed to big M, and they actually asked for this kind of non-functionality. It was a lot of hard work, but I managed it. I actually made something that raises anticipation, and does nothing, but then nothing at all. Now I just have to make sure it crashes regularly. And it's got multimedia bits in it too. Just like the specs of the beloved operating system. It's cool, no ?


Alrik Fassbauer :

Maybe he did ZIP too many files on his PC ... ?!

MFG (Mehr Fürs Geld), Alrik.

Goemoe :

I think he prefers to ZAP them...


Arhu :

I once owned a candy box that was literally filled with little tidbits. Actually these tidbits were filled with more multimedia bits than today's word processors: You could play with them, you never knew what was in them (ah, a glimmering red package, what can it be), hence they surpised you, then you could put them into a glass of milk, and you could even eat them!!

Long live the candy dandy!!


PS: Luna, see? Rulez!!

Posted between February, 4th, 2000 15:16 local time and February, 13th, 2000 , 23:14 local time ...


Lar :

For the record, I set things straight with major fatal considering his starcraft claims. I believe the word I'm looking for is pulverized. Actually, we used me playing against fatal to show the artists the explosions in Starcraft


major fatal :

Guys its horrible, its uttermost terror, damn man there seems to be a dopphleganger of me who is going to my work and impling h'es me, even my brother dont see the difference, its horrible!!! what can i do??? help my someone!!! All the good i have done shall be in vain!!! (among other things he managed to think looking like me that he could whin of swen, offcourse he loosed, missing the high qualitys i possess thats normal!!) So now again i have to put right what the dopphleganger sqrewed!

but the light will bring unjustice to the surface!

Lar :

Try it dude, but this time when you lose, it'll be cleaning the office instead of a red bull


Goemoe :


I somehow get the feeling you guys are playing starcraft only to implement all ideas and memories you encounter in our peaceful lovely Divinity ... (yes our; it is for us, didn't you know that?)

I really don't want to find any Zerg or Protoss while I do some services to my master wizard...

Did you understand what I mean ?


Dante :

And now they are talking elsewhere about eggs, hatching into critters... not long before a mighty wizard having a spell against these critter eggs starts greeting you with "en taro adun"...

Lar :

Why didn't I think of it ? Why didn't I think of it ? Why didn't I think of it ? Aarrgh, why didn't I think of it. Consider it done


Is this the beginning of the idea of the egg-bombs featured in ? I don't know ...

Anaway, this small episode was posted between February, 15th, 2000 01.51 local time and February, 16th, 2000 , 10:52 local time.


Lar :

Hi all,

Doing a full recompile so I got some time on my hands. This is a small update on what the current state is of Divinity:

While the gameworld is one big land, there are three distinct parts that can be isolated, geographically. We are working on the three parts simultanously, but graphicwise we are about ready with the first part, with a large piece of part 2 in progress. Currently we are working very hard on finishing the implementation of part 1, meaning that we would like to be able to say quite soon that part1 is ready. We suffered some delay, approximately three weeks on part1, and that's why we're being so silent, as we're trying to catch up. All screenshots so far have been from part1, and there's a lot you haven't seen yet, for the simple reason that the editing only started last week or so (Hence our delay). This is the first time we thoroughly edit a piece of the world, and during that phase several uglly little problems showed their head, and that's what caused our delay.

Still, we're well on our way finishing part1, and then we will truely be able to tell just exactly how good this game will be, as for now even for us that is an unknown. There's a lot of cool stuff, but most of these things are isolated, and within the next weeks we will for the first time be able to say how all of that holds up when it is integrated with one another. Obviously we hope it will be as cool as we expect it to be

When we're ready with part1, I hope we will be able to stuff this site with info at a very fast rate, but for now, please understand that the information flow might be a tad slow.

Ok, build's ready. Let's see how those shadows behave


Arhu :

Hey Lar, thanx for the update.

>>Let's see how those shadows behave<<
Aye, let's see! *giggle* yeah!


EvilRussianScientist :


Goemoe :

Shadows, hmmm?

Don't tell me they are boneless skeletons with an once again improved AI...

Thanks for the info though


Lynn :

Wow Eve, I'm amazed ! You've found your way back to here

Anastasia :

Hmmm... a 3-week-delay. Anyone volunteering for taking bets on a Q4 instead of Q3 release yet ?

Decado :

I wouldn't be surprised if this game was delayed to 2001.

C'mon, who can think of a decent sized CRPG in recent memory that wasn't at least a half a year late?

Besides Fallout 2.

Lar :

We're trying


This small episode took place between March, 3rd, 2000 14:14 local time and March, 7th, 2000 19:46 local time. All time displays are taken from the archived topic itself.


Lar :

The npcs I mean. There's this little cat, kitty be her name, who can take up an affection for the player. Somehow kitty's alignment got completely mixed up, and to make things worse, kitty for some reason had relatively high stats. The results ? Kitty hates other animals. She becomes all fluffy and purry when she meets humans, lizards, elves or dwarves. However, when she meets cows, pigs, rabbits, boars etc... she becomes a mean lean killing ball of death. I just walked through Aleroth with kitty in my trail , and this was the animal liberation front's worst nightmare. Not a single animal survived kitty's onslaught

What happened ? Well, kitty has a distaste for rats, so the idea was that when kitty sees a rat, she goes after it. For some reason though, rats were categorized as being of the same group as all the other animals, meaning that after the initial killing of all the rats, kitty suddenly thought all other animals were rats too. And then you wonder why RPG's take so much time to develop


Tutamun :

I wounder who has tought her to do such nasty stuff....

Arhu :

Yeah, I'm wondering too.

"There are many intelligent species in the universe. They are all owned by cats."
- Anonymous
[This message has been edited by Arhu (edited 24-09-2000).]

Dante :

I always thought that rabbits were the ferocious animals of nature (Search of the Holy Grail).

TheSchnibble :

Hey, Dante, that cat sounds a lot like your kid...

Dante :

Uhuh, and who's kid did a see at the same age using the chainsaw on the head of his little sister? Well, Schnibble? What about that?

PS: for the less informed people: it was a plastic chainsaw version without moving parts and it were the high days of DOOM II, but nevertheless...

This strange episode took place between September, 23rd, 2000 12:51 and September, 27th, 2000 14:57 .

When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch

#151651 - 01/13/04 02:27 PM Re: [History] Stories from the early development.
AlrikFassbauer Offline

Registered: 03/10/03
Posts: 19669
Loc: Rogue Squadron

theShephard :

The Ultima (RIP) series breifly began to include the ability to do some of the more politically incorrect elements of an RPG -- have sex and take drugs (v7 for sex, and v8, horrible as it was, had some shrooms in it I think, although even 7 graphically had many aminita muscaria littered about in the forest, you just couldn't do anything with them). Anyway, I always thought that it would be cool to make a game where all the political and proper restrictions were lifted. Obviously, there's only so much you can do code-wise, but this ties into comments about making the game "livable".

Lar :

Interesting thought - I'll admit that this is something we haven't explored really (There's an euthanasia debate with an elf but that's not exactly what you mean, right ?). Suggestions anybody ?


Tuamun :

Well, there is something like this in the game: Kill Ortho's pigs (which is mean!) and you will have to live with the consequenzes... Probably not exactly what you thought of, but it goes in this direction, I think.

If you implement the socalled "political incorrect" stuff like sex and drugs then the game may be restricted or forbidden in some countries....

theShepard :

Here're some interesting links that may provide inspiration for (~historically accurate) application of said elements..
Shrooms used to induce battle fury (berserkers), shrooms used by priests for visions etc.. http://www.gothic.net/~malice/mushroom.html http://www.calpoly.edu/~abalderm/muscarine.html
Good point about the fear of censorship though... Unfortunately, Walmart and a host of other American stores (Kmart, etc) are about in step with Iran when it comes to this sort of stuff.. bummer, but should we be a slave to that or try and push the cultural boundaries? I guess the answer's clear when selling a product, ay?

EvilRussianScientist :

Sorry guys, I may be a little bit off topic but since when "having sex" became as socially unacceptable as "taking drugs" ?

Why is psychoanalysis a lot quicker for men than for women?
.......When it's time to go back to his childhood, he's already there.

TheSchnibble :

quote:Originally posted by EvilRussianScientist:
Sorry guys, I may be a little bit off topic but since when "having sex" became as socially unacceptable as "taking drugs" ?

It always has been. You will burn in hell for even using the three letter s-word.

Father Schnibble

Goemoe :

You're right Eve.

I think comparing sex to drugs is something weird in itself. Only some religious fanatic might have such ideas. Since games are more for teen than oldies i would expect not to find any "cool" characters taking drugs.

Sex is a totally other point. It is not common to have sex implemented in rpgs, so if you do it, you have to fear offended reviews, or you have to find a way where everyone (save the fanatics...) is pleased with.


EvilRussianScientist :


But what they will do to me for actually practising it?!


I think it is up to oldies to generate some ideas on unoffensive introduction of s(ooops, sorry, Father)- let's say physical side of genders interaction... Kinda FalloutII thingies full of innuendos...

Way of survavior will be even more fun if you can trade ...ual(yeah, I don't want to go to Hell ) favors for something you need. Hey, I would do everything to screw king/queen !

Why is psychoanalysis a lot quicker for men than for women?
.......When it's time to go back to his childhood, he's already there.

Dante :

Interesting sub plots, Eve,... very interesting

Arhu :

Ah well, but sex is at least known as "improper" in the public, or in other words politically incorrect, as theShepard named it. If such things were about to be implemented in a game, they wouldn't necessarily be a matter of common "unease", and imho, they don't have to be taken that seriously or become a philosophical debate. We've quite enough of that in real life.

It hasn't always been the only purpose of drugs to make one addicted - "induce battle fury, shrooms used by priests for visions"; medicine men used some weird smoke for that...
There were drugs (spice) in Dune; whiskey was used to anaesthetize someone (cf. Braveheart where one of the guys had an arrow sticking in his back which had to be pulled out), or just to reduce fear before a battle; . . .

If these "politically incorrect" things were reasonable, I don't think there would be problems with censorship. Just regard them as some history lesson.
Mushrooms, for example, are pretty natural anyway. There could be many a mushroom in the wilderness - they could be poisonous and reduce some stats or have certain (positive or negative) side effects, or they could simply be unhealthy or don't have any effects at all (serving as normal food).

As far as sex is concerned, there could at least be innuendos, as Eve suggested, though iirc, I've read a long time ago about LMK that you could happen to catch a couple having fun.

Oh btw, Ultima VII is on my current playlist, since I can finally play it in Win98 with my SB-Live and GM music . Can anyone tell me how sex was implemented there? Just nosy.

"You will always be lucky if you know how to make friends with strange cats." - Colonial American proverb

[This message has been edited by Arhu (edited 27-09-2000).]

Lar :

>>As far as sex is concerned, there could at least be innuendos, as Eve suggested, though iirc, I've read a long time ago about LMK that you could happen to
catch a couple having fun. <<

If I'm not mistaking, there's this girl who is an expert at ice magic - she'll give you a rather wild night, oh mighty avatar cat


This small discussion, that eventually led to a certain quest in Verdistis and a very strong enemy, took place between September, 22nd, 22:29 and September, 28th, 2000 11:41.


Marian :

At the time when I am busy with a lot of monster variation i´ve still a couple of new monsters to do. And again a question came into my mind which i was discussing in larian studios a while ago.
Its a moral Thing. When playing Diablo 2 all of us had in the first act a lot of female rogues against us. Evil ones, okay. But still, everytime my necromancer killed one of them i felt sorry. No matter the fact it was only a pile of animated pixels i felt like killing a woman. The same in Diablo 1 with the sexy winged witches.

Later in a pub these days the topic came up when ilya and swen wondered about this and said they had no problem with that. Because it is of course equally bad killing a man OR a woman, right? An i had to agree.
But then again, this is the reason because in Divinity so far is one human female monster and she´s a special endbosslike creature.

So this bring the entire diskussion to you. What do you think? More Females to kill or not? Some humanoid monsters i have to create anyway, it is just the question if they become female or male...

Bronthion :

I have no problems killing evil women.

I'm a great fan of Robert Jordans Wheel of Time series. But one thing is always getting on my nerves: Rand Al'Thors problem killing the evil witches. Because they're women. Stupid boy.

But there is one big question, Marian: did you kill Andariel, or not?


[This message has been edited by Bronthion (edited 28-09-2000).]

Goemoe :

If I have to defend me, I don't care whether it is a woman or a man: Why should I? This talk about beating women is outdated for my liking. You shouldn't beat anyone but you should at least defend yourself.

In a game there isn't even a difference between man or women. Both will hit you with equal force if you let them. Ask any women today if she would like to be treated like a weaker species and tell me which part of your body hurts after it

If you have some evil women (don't say female skeletons, please ) tell them to hide well or stay peaceful...


Tutamun :

In Diablo II you only kill a pile of pixels where you can hardly guess what these pixels should be... In Diablo the nice sexy winged withes had wings and were thus not human. It was no problem for me to kill one or the other. In Icewind Dale you meet this nice Barmaid Lysan... I tried to avoid fighting her by all means, but in the end I had to defend myself. But it hurt to kill her. IRL I think I would have problems hitting women... I also would have problems hitting men, but it would be harder to hit women. She would have to kill me before I would be able to hit her.

>>I'm a great fan of Robert Jordans Wheel of Time series. But one thing is always getting on my nerves: Rand Al'Thors problem killing the evil witches. Because they're women. Stupid boy.<<
Der Mann hat Charakter! This is one thing about him I like. He's totally nuts, but he doesn't (versößt gegen seine Grundsätze)!

Sorry about my english... or writing parts in german in this topic, but I can't translate that now.

Marian :

Exactly that´s the problem. In real life i did never hit or beat a woman and i hope i never will. You know, iron principles. So thats why i handle it more then less the same in the game.

Cybu :

As most of you know I have no problkem killing lil' ol' grannies.

However I hate to kill animals (wolf in special) in a game.

on the other hand I had this strange encounter with the evil undead Squirrel in IceWind Dale. After kicking off the game my party and I encountered some kiddies staring playfull at a lovely squirrel. Since my party and I loved to enhance our reputation towards the nice people of Icewind Dale we decided to kill the Squirrel (call it a lesson in anatomy for the nice children )

After 4 minutes of constant battle with 6 adventurers I decided to quit the attack since the thought came up to me that the squirrel just couldn't be killed ... Now this is what I call immersion-killing gameplay ...

But back to the topic. No I don't object to killing women. (dead gils don't say no *diabolical grin*)


EvilRussianScientist :

Two points, if I may:


All games are going to great extend to justify killing monsters -monsters - even if it does have humun body by declaring them monsters - not human beings.

What do we hate to hit - human being or human body?

To me it seems that Marian's "Moral thing" is utterly misplaced. I will try to explain why... I'll do my best...

Artist does not hit woman. So he feels not easy about putting women (he creates with care and love) in game to be slaughtered there. "if I will not put them there gamers will not have a chance of hitting them, thus my standing is not compromised and moral lesson is given" ... something isn't right about such assumptions.....

I am obviously not capable of concentrating now... But

Ask any women
today if she would like to be treated like a weaker species and tell me which part of your body hurts after it


Why is psychoanalysis a lot quicker for men than for women?
.......When it's time to go back to his childhood, he's already there.

Dante :

Eve, I know which part would hurt...

Marian: do not mind so much. In Fantasy RPG settings men and women are considered equally - in all aspects.

All: yes, I consider it bad to slash any being, male or female, human or not. (There were some racistic remarks about "we humans have the right to kill non humans"... hmmm I dislike this as much as ... um as... um... well you know.

So, fit women into the story where they fit, and although they have typical qualities, this does not mean they are only fitting a place in the kitchen, at the counter in shops, in the bars,...

Tutamun :

Oh, I forgot to say. Put in Women that we have to kill... or may kill... or can kill... or whatever. It may hurt, but you can't leave them out because of this. They belong into our world. What would it be without them.

Risini Visinimi :

IRL I also would never beat up a woman, but in a game, when there is the question to live or to die, I wouldn't have any scruple. That is 'cause I know, (even if she looks so beautiful) she is only a bunch of pixels with a heap of code control heur. But if don't have to kill heur, I would try to avoid it. I would also try to avoid to kill men, but not so mutch.

Will you never forget how to laught!

Risini Visinimi

EvilRussianScientist :


Marian :

quote:Originally posted by EvilRussianScientist:
"if I will not put them there gamers will not have a chance of hitting them, thus my standing is not compromised and moral lesson is given"

Yeah, right. Ever asked yourself why i did post it here? Because i don´t want to teach a moral lesson to anyone.
And Dante, the storyrelated Woman are NPCs. There we have a lot of course, and i made a couple of them.

Dante :

Yeah, you're right, but as others said, I wouldn't mind too much to kill a humanoid female creature (NCP or monster - for me they are all the same) if it threatens my life or tha life of an innocent being.

Well known examples to help you:
- gorgo medusa (mythology)
- sirens (mythology)
- vampire babes (current age B-movies, well "B" depends on who talks about the movie, hence, for me, B movies )
- alien killer babes (again movies, e.g. Species)
- etc... etc...

I mean, even IF a women would be beautiful, innocent etc by definition (I do not want to start a discussion about this but suppose it is ), as soon as the female creature in front of me does actions that thread to kill the innocent (like myself - see above), this brittle aura of innocense and beauty is shattered and I have no problem at all to kill that monster in front of me, no matter how beautiful she still looks.
No remorse.

Convinced now? (Only trying to help here)

Dante :

quote:Originally posted by Marian:
The same in Diablo 1 with the sexy winged witches.

I think in Diablo I these succubi were a bit out of place and were just introduced to offer some erotic "reward" to the player that got so far. I mean, the monster can get bigger and uglier for a while, but then, what else can you introduce than shocking adversaries like succubi, half naked, with leather boots and trying to kill you? Uhuh... B movies, here I come

Arhu :

Uhm.. Eve is right - by declaring something a monster, it becomes a pretty trivial task to kill that monster, even if it's female. In Diablo the only thing that seemed female to me was the shape of succubi etc., but otherwise they were pure bow fodder as any of the other evil minions. They had no character at all.
If monsters had personalities, a life, a destiny beyond evil vileness, I'd most likely have problems hitting anyone of them. Imagine a darkelf clan (no offence meant, Marian, it's just an example. ). Normally I'd hate them, for they are wicked ceratures, and when I see some fighters, I'd kill them. But what if there was a camp, and in that camp, there lived those cruel fighters - together with women, children, pets... Now that would arouse some moral dilemmas! (That was what made Drizzt become a good elf, with reversed roles of course)

Marian: ~In real life i did never hit or beat a woman and i hope i never will. You know, iron principles. So thats why i handle it more then less the same in the game. ~
Is that a bad thing? Quite the opposite I think. And I personally would prefer even more moral conflicts in , because they can be another immersion factor. "Evil" creatures are not evil or from birth, or from their own point of view, they might even think of "good" races as evil (and vice versa). Maybe the leader of a filthy band of murdering outlaws has only become a mean person because of a bad experience in his childhood (eg. parents killed)... Anything could happen.

Remember Ralf in the German RPG chat area? He played Thief and never wanted to kill certain monsters, cause their cries were so pitiful. Right so! Poor creatures, they only defend their territory.
Something to make your dilemma even more sticky : have some mysterious guild; the members are bad people (that is, you'll maybe have to kill them at some time) and are clad in huge robes, their faces hidden in hoods, so that you can't know whether you're fighting a man or a woman...
They wouldn't make any sound at all while fighting - only when you stab their body you'd hear their painful cries of death...
(i.e. either male or female voices)

Edit: Would be nice if there were gains (experience, quests, ...) for avoiding and not fighting each seemingly evil "monster" you see.

"The cat has too much spirit to have no heart." - Ernest Menaul

[This message has been edited by Arhu (edited 29-09-2000).]

EvilRussianScientist :

Sorry, beste Warlock, did not mean to make you face red and teethy . Lousy communication skill of mine - as I suspected..

Ever asked yourself why i did post it here?

Hmm, wild guess: Having problem (moral - not professional) with making female bodied monsters for and looking for guideness in this matter?

Wild guess is wild guess, you know that, do' ya?


Why is psychoanalysis a lot quicker for men than for women?
.......When it's time to go back to his childhood, he's already there.

This serious discussion took place from September , 27th, 2000 23:53 to October, 1st, 2000 18:59.

When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch

#151652 - 01/13/04 08:02 PM Re: [History] Stories from the early development.
HandEFood Offline

Registered: 03/27/03
Posts: 5016
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Wow! It's interesting to see the yesteryears of this humble forum, and of our beloved Divine Divinity. Glad to know things haven't changed a bit!

#151653 - 01/13/04 08:24 PM Re: [History] Stories from the early development.
Rincewind Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 936
Loc: Visible
Wonderful stuff there, Alrik The Historian! Nice to know the story of that friendly ( )kitty in Aleroth... and "Zap World" was cool, too... wondering now about some of those item-combinations... did the ability to make a Molotov cocktail ever actually get into Divinity? hmmm... must copy out the list and try some things... (and if not, maybe next game!)
The Rivertown Chronicle

#151654 - 01/13/04 09:39 PM Re: [History] Stories from the early development.
janggut Offline

Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 4357
Loc: malaysia
quite a dark & funny piece of history there, alrik. thanks for putting it up. great job!

......a gift from LaFille......

#151655 - 01/15/04 10:37 AM Re: [History] Stories from the early development.
Kejero Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/10/03
Posts: 918
This little sentence made me wonder...


If you have some evil women (don't say female skeletons, please ) tell them to hide well or stay peaceful...

Have there ever been any female skeletons in an RPG?
And if you were to put them in, how would you "clarify" the difference between male and female? (considering the limited amount of pixels and all)
Remembering the dialogue about their existence between those two skeletons in , you could have a comparable dialogue between the player and an incensed (verontwaardigd) female skeleton because the player assumed she was a male She could even raise the politically correct issue and let the player decide whether to kill her or not

Furthermore I've noticed that Lar must've grown up or something ... Haven't seen many ZAPS or other signs of Redbull on this forum for a looooong time He's only doing live performances now?
Mr Kej, Second Member of the Guild of Off-Topic Posters *** Visit Aviorn's Inn, my Divine Divinity fansite ***

#151656 - 01/15/04 04:31 PM Re: [History] Stories from the early development.
AlrikFassbauer Offline

Registered: 03/10/03
Posts: 19669
Loc: Rogue Squadron
Well, I guess the whole team has bekome far more "professional" , so to say.

When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch

#151657 - 01/30/04 10:01 PM Re: [History] Stories from the early development.
Jurak Offline

Registered: 04/12/03
Posts: 6899
Loc: Somewhere between Here, ..and ...
wow! nice discussion,
i would have enjoyed being in on that one!
Third Member of Off-Topic Posters
Defender of the [color:"green"]PIF.
[/color] Das Grosse Grüne Ogre!!! [/color]

#151658 - 01/31/04 07:19 AM Re: [History] Stories from the early development.
Morbo Offline


Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 4205
Loc: Omicron Persei 8

Well, I guess the whole team has bekome far more "professional" , so to say.

Nice to see these discussions. I wonder what kind of discussions theire having now.

Not in the mood for cheese?
That excuse has more holes than a slice this fine Gorgombert!

#151659 - 01/31/04 10:37 AM Re: [History] Stories from the early development.
Jurak Offline

Registered: 04/12/03
Posts: 6899
Loc: Somewhere between Here, ..and ...
that's a secret!
Third Member of Off-Topic Posters
Defender of the [color:"green"]PIF.
[/color] Das Grosse Grüne Ogre!!! [/color]


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