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#355773 29/08/08 01:44 PM
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Hello all – I’m going to try to maintain a bit of a diary online to keep you posted on how development is going and what exactly is going on at Larian with regards to div2. It won’t be that regular as time typically is my enemy, but I’ll try to give you these updates whenever there’s a hole in my schedule.

It’s been cool presenting the game at Leipzig and seeing all the reactions. Ever since the announcement I’ve seen the developers over here continuously check out what people are thinking about the material we’ve released so far, and it’s been fun seeing all the smiles when something good was said or occasionally hear the shouts of sheer frustration when someone posted something they didn’t agree with. It’s also nice to see the forum kick back alive regarding the work we’ve been doing and it’s an enormous relief that we can finally talk about the game we’ve been working on for so long.

The interface thread regarding the wasd controls has already sparked many a debate internally and especially the fears we’ve seen online of it being too action oriented triggered something over here. As a result we’ve launched a track to reinstall the pause feature of Divinity 1, and we should be able to try it out next week to see how it affects gameplay. It looks actually quite promising and a side effect is that we’ve now got a nice way of making screenshots (think bullet time).

We’re now in the stage of development that I prefer the most. It’s the stage where you have this huge beast with all kinds of features that you can tweak and realign fairly easily. We’ll soon be starting our playtests and it’s going to be fun to see the game grow week after week when we tune it to the feedback we get from the players. Well, I hope it’s going to be fun and that we didn’t too make too many bad decisions wink

As more details about the game will be released, I’m also very curious what you all will have to say about it. This forum has always been a big source of inspiration to the point that when making the design for div2 it was: ok let’s see what they really liked and let’s see what they really disliked. Since you lot don’t always agree that was often an interesting exercise. And of course, we also have our opinion about certain things wink

Because the above paragraph might sound cheesy, I want to stress the point about how important this community has been to our past development by citing one example: the two skeletons in Divine Divinity having their philosophic argument is a scene which has often been cited as one of the most memorable moments of the game. But the scene wasn’t completely our idea as it came about as the result of the interaction between a forum member visiting our office and Bronthion who designed the GIQ’s in div. I think it was Alrik but I’m not 100% sure anymore.

Another example would be the moral dilemmas thread. The feedback we got there was important in making the crazy decision to try to have lot of immediately tangible consequences in the subquests and it even lead to the mindread feature, in some weird twisted way which involves a shower 
And I don’t even want to talk about all the help we got for the QA on Beyond Divinity from the members of this forum.

Anyway, I was going to give you a bit of an update on what we were doing rather than starting to think about why this forum is so important to Larian (and yes, I know, our years of silence haven’t helped a lot). The most notable things since Leipzig over here have been reviews of where we stand with the user interface, something cool called pre light-pass rendering and the art and animation teams entering their final bursts of production.

The user interface visible in the youtube video by Xanlosch is obviously a work in progress version and our art director has recently started deciding on the visual look of it. We went through all of the user interfaces the game offers (which is really quite a lot since we have different UI’s on the Xbox360 and the PC) and at first sight, it looks like the usability of those things is working out well. New to me was the character customization screen and the quest rewards screen which I had only seen on paper so far. Regarding the customization screen there is a neat feature which allows you to recustomize your character once you are already walking around in the game. And the quest rewards screen is different to what I’ve see so far in other RPGs (of course I didn’t play them all so maybe it exists somewhere). We’ll have to see how the play tests go, but my thoughts upon seeing the UI was that I think you shouldn’t find getting the game to do what you want it to do a big hassle.

The pre light-pass rendering is something we had to do to solve a problem on the Xbox360 and wasn’t really planned, but it came with a lot of benefits (also for PC) so I’m quite happy we did it. I think that once our artists will be able to use the full power of the thing, you should see something really nice appear in the next bunch of screenshots. I won’t tell you what yet wink

And as far as the art and animation teams entering the final production phases goes, that doesn’t mean they’re finished yet because they’ll soon enter a long period of QA, but it means that most of the assets of the game are actually there and that most parts of the gameworld are ready, at least from a visual point of view. Our designers still have to fill up certain chunks of the game with all kinds of quests and boosters.

Our menu for the coming weeks is filled with the last remaining gameplay features being implemented, a whole bunch of quests being added and reviewing a lot of the artwork and animations that were made. That and of course seeing how the playtests go.

Right, back to some very boring task involving numbers and a lot of legal lines...or maybe I'll pretend I forgot and start my weekend party

Cheers

Lar

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Oh yeah, when I say assets are ready visually, I mean they are there - that doesn't mean they won't be polished anymore. Just in case somebody misinterpreted my words wink

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The interface thread regarding the wasd controls has already sparked many a debate internally and especially the fears we've seen online of it being too action oriented triggered something over here.

Now will you stop calling it an action-RPG on the Divinity2 website? :hihi:

A few screenshots or gameplay videos at a high camera angle wouldn't hurt either, since isometric is more associated with traditional RPGs.


As a result we've launched a track to reinstall the pause feature of Divinity 1

eek

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Ahhh!

"Lar finally Speaks Out"

one could tag this here, a loosely regular editorial i see coming from it. wink
delight

Great relief to see your presence here re-established (and hopefully increased) here again. birthdayjump

And great satisfaction that the Community is put back into business again - where it belongs to.
Its rightful place, definitely.
cool

Just keep it coming, man.


Btw, may i suggests something? think

As much as the discussions surely to spark from it are welcome, i´d say you should close this thread every time you have dropped a new bit here and only reopen again briefly every time you have s.th. to post, the way it is already done with a few pinned (announcement) threads across the forums.

Thus the stream of conscience you create here won´t be frayed out through intermittent postings from others.

The attached discussions should rather take place in separate threads for every aspect the community might wanna cover.


Cheers and keep the going up, up
Ragon

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Or just rename it 'News from the front:part 1'

The pause button would be great!!! Maybe you can add in some effect of time slowing down till it is still and let some heartbeats blast through the speakers. (By use of adrenaline the dragon knight can asses dangerous situations skill wink (well you can get some plot device to explain it)).





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Nice speech. smile

Originally Posted by Lar_q
But the scene wasn’t completely our idea as it came about as the result of the interaction between a forum member visiting our office and Bronthion who designed the GIQ’s in div. I think it was Alrik but I’m not 100% sure anymore.


I was sadly never at Oudenaarde - But Bronthion was indeed there.

What we two did was messing around with the German-language books in the shelves of the Larian Easter egg Area in div . Plus, I think it was with his help that my "Windwhispers" or "Wind Voices" text came into the game. wink




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Phew... it's awesome that you folks listen to the fans so much but yet know when and how to draw the line. :P And what a post! :P

Yes and I really liked the pause function as all you needed to do was hit the "space bar" and things just stopped.

Erm... " pre light-pass rendering "? Sorry... can't recall what that is. smile

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Thanks Lar,

Good update.

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Never use pause in a single character game, so that one doesn't bother me. Seems too much like cheating laugh

What I DO care about is key re-mapping. If WASD is the movement standard, can you make sure we can also use the arrow keys, or at least re-map the keys, please?

While I can use the mouse with either hand, I tend to greatly favour my left. Any genuine southpaw out there will be stuffed if forced to use WASD.


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I like pause when I go to get some food...



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But is it unhelpful to introduce the tactical pause in an action/rpg...think...!?
..
..
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but I like the idea!... horsey

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Originally Posted by Elliot_Kane
What I DO care about is key re-mapping. If WASD is the movement standard, can you make sure we can also use the arrow keys, or at least re-map the keys, please?

Lar said in the games convention topic that you would be able to re-map keys. One of the Larians specifically said (somewhere) that you can use the arrow keys, but (at least with right handed mouse use) the WASD movement and mouse controlled camera worked best (for them) in their tests.



Originally Posted by juanpablo87
But is it unhelpful to introduce the tactical pause in an action/rpg

It is not an action RPG, though.

Speaking of pausing, I suppose we wouldn't necessarily want to be able to drink 15 potions while paused, but that is also an issue with potion design (instant, full effect vs a delay and/or gradual effect). Skill selection, equipment swapping, target selection (if possible), etc are probably fine.

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It is not an action RPG, though.

LOL
Why not?

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Originally Posted by juanpablo87
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It is not an action RPG, though.

LOL
Why not?


It is, partially, but we don't like to refer to ED as an ActionRPG. Its much more, and other games with the action rpg label are nothing compared ED's depth.


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The term 'action RPG' is generally used for Diablo style hack and slash games, with no real plot and shallow, linear quests that boil down to either going to kill something, or finding / delivering something (which involves killing monsters that are in the way), and is an immediate turn off for me. Unless I've seen a game recommended by a trusted source or there is something unique about it, if I check out a game's home page and see the term 'action RPG' I might dismiss it without even finishing the sentence.

Wikipedia link: Action RPG.

D2:ED may be an RPG with an action style combat system, but it is not an action RPG (by the common definition of that term).

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Too, an action-RPG doesn't automatically mean that you shouldn't be able to pause the game at any time. For my part, the ability to stop the game and resume is almost a must for me and I don't recall playing any games in recent years that disallowed that. If there's no pause, I would call up the game main menu and that would usually pause the game. Since I don't play multiplayer, it's never an issue.

Great update, btw. It's always impressive to see a developer react swiftly to what they get in terms of feedback during development. Hopefully, we fans here aren't skewing your greater audience, though. wink

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Pausing using the menu function is a bit different from the use that was in DD, BD and is planned for ED.

It allows you to pause, select your target, choose your skill, unpause, pause, select target, select skill, unpause, etc ...

Giving you great tactical advantage, time to think over the situatation. Hence taking the away a bit the need for fast reAction. But not ED not beeing an Action RPG is for other reasons than merely the pause button.


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Thanks, Raze smile

***

'Action-RPG' usually describes a game with zero actual role playing (And is thus an oxymoron). It's not a good term to use if you want to imply any kind of characterisation, story depth or the existence of meaningful choice beyond "Do I use a big axe or a bigger axe?"

From what we know so far, ED has all these things; ergo it is not an 'Action-RPG'.


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Sorry: D2:ED is an action/RPG because the combat is not like dragon age, is not like fallout1-2, is not like AoD...(for example);
but is based also on our abilities with keyboard-mouse/gamepad(x360)...

the fact that you or other persons out of this forum thing that "action" is sinonimus of "no role-playing game" and "bad RPG because there are no choises-conseguence,dilemmas,dialogues" is another thing...is your problem and a bad interpretation of the term...(no offense eh... wink )

The term "action" indicates only the combat style...nothing more...

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Bad interpretation of the term? How so? I'm honestly curious...

Unless you're talking about the people who first decided that an RPG should contain zero role playing, in which case I will completely agree with you...


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Sorry: D2:ED is an action/RPG because the combat is not like dragon age, is not like fallout1-2, is not like AoD...(for example);

Point and click controls, or turn based combat, do not an RPG make.


but is based also on our abilities with keyboard-mouse/gamepad(x360)...

Is it? Based on what I have seen so far I certainly fear that may be the case, but I have not seen any conformation.


The term "action" indicates only the combat style...nothing more...

Diablo uses a point and click combat style (not primarily the player's reflexes), and that is the 'gold standard' of action RPGs, which everything else tends to get compared to.

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Sorry, I'm not reffered to you in specific...but in general also to the other members that posted before...

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with this post you give me reason...
Infact I saying that the combat style does notmake a RPG...;we can have also a good roleplaying game with an action combat ;like D2:ED;...

you are saying that D2:ED is not an action/RPG because is more deep and complex RPG than actionrpg in general like Diablo...
It can be a very good RPG with action combat style...

PS:sorry but my poor english stop me to exspress myself clearer and easier...

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No problem smile I'm so used to non-native English speakers being as good as or better than native speakers (And trust me, you're well on the way - your English is great smile ) that I tend not to make as much allowance as I should.

I think what games companies usually consider the difference is what is the most important part of the game: in an 'Action-RPG' the main emphasis is on combat over and above anything else whereas in a straight RPG the most important part is the characters and the story.

It's why games like The Witcher and the Baldur's Gate series get classified as straight RPGs despite having a lot of fighting in them. The fighting is not the point of the game. In an 'Action-RPG' it is.


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I find myself agreeing with juanpablo87 on this one. EK and Raze I think you're exaggerating and being ridiculously harsh on the action-rpg term.
Ok, so I had to revise my opinion a bit when I realized there actually is a common distinction between "true" and "action" RPG's, (which is just gaming snobbery IMO). Some games don't balance combat with other important elements well and therefore get dumped into the "action" category, and rather arbitrarily, it seems to me.

I want action AND roleplaying in my games. Why must one be exclusive of the other? Plenty of games meet the 'criteria' for RPG: Sacred had a huge open world, Dungeon Siege II had puzzles, character-specific quests that required revisiting areas and exploring new secrets, multiple ways to solve quests, dialogue options for conversations, etc. etc. And even the most shallow of the games in the "action" category still have character development at the least. Yet they are branded with a term that suddenly has a stigma attached to it. Oh no! Not action RPG! rolleyes

I just mean I don't mind this term applied to ED in the least. I really can't imagine that any substantial amount of people would utterly disregard a game after reading the term "action-RPG."

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I think our posting at the same time means we are now at cross-purposes, Flixerflax smile

Setting aside the 'what is really an RPG and what is not' argument for the moment it still comes down to emphasis.

I speak as a person who owns, plays and has finished (Often several times) Diablo 2, Kult: Heretic Kingdoms, Seal Of Evil, Titan Quest, the original Dungeon Siege... You get the idea. I'm not at all averse to playing the games. Indeed, by now I can honestly say I'm not bad at them.

An 'Action-RPG' as the term suggests is mainly about action and it is action-driven. Everything exists as either an excuse to let you kill vast numbers of things or a way to make you better at killing them.

With an RPG, combat is very much secondary. Evasion is frequently an option because the point of the game is not to fight stuff, it's to accomplish goals. It's character- and story-driven.

So it's not an insult to say something is or is not an 'Action-RPG' - it's a classification smile

***

As a digression, I object to the term 'Action-RPG' because it's misleading. The entire point of an RPG (As anyone who has played the pen & paper games the computer games are derived from will tell you) is characterisation. It is simply playing a ROLE as the title suggests. That doesn't mean a choice between whether to use an axe or a sword, but how your character will react as a person. It's freeform acting. Maxing out stats is not role playing.


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No problem I'm so used to non-native English speakers being as good as or better than native speakers (And trust me, you're well on the way - your English is great :)) that I tend not to make as much allowance as I should.

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I want action AND roleplaying in my games

woehoe
even if I don't dislike AoD for example...
infact I wait it impatiently rolleyes

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Maxing out stats is not role playing.

Ha, well put, Elliot. up And of course I realize full well where people are coming from with the (minor) issue of the 'action' prefix. If it retains the depth and characterization of DD, the new game will stand apart from D3 and its combat-centric ilk. Just feeling defensive of some of my (our) favorite games, I guess. wink

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Thanks for the post Lar. I'm glad to see a pause feature in the game.

I love RPG's but I have real trouble with complex action gameplay involving both hands.

"Diablo" style combat I can handle, but standard FPS gameplay with keyboard and mouse is pretty much beyond me. Any feature that slows things down, or gives me more time to react is appreciated.

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Originally Posted by flixerflax
Maxing out stats is not role playing.

Ha, well put, Elliot. up And of course I realize full well where people are coming from with the (minor) issue of the 'action' prefix. If it retains the depth and characterization of DD, the new game will stand apart from D3 and its combat-centric ilk. Just feeling defensive of some of my (our) favorite games, I guess. wink


'Action-RPGs' get bashed a lot by 'True RPG' fans, so it's an easy assume smile

I just wish they'd call them 'Dungeon Crawlers' or something laugh


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Juanpablo87;

Yes, most (or at least many) people make a distinction between and 'action RPG' and an RPG with action combat. Larian doesn't seem to, though, as it refers to the game as an action RPG on the Div2 website.

Your English is fine. I was assuming you meant 'action RPG' was the same as 'RPG with action combat', which is arguably the case if you want to get technical. However, in general usage the term has come to mean action combat with only superficial RPG elements (like leveling, classes, fantasy setting, etc).



Flixerflax;

I don't think there is anything wrong with action RPGs, I just find them boring and repetitive (never finished Diablo or Diablo II). For years now there have been games being created to be just like Diablo, only with better graphics or a different setting / mythology base. Unless there is something unique about an action RPG, I don't see myself ever playing it. In I of the Dragon, playing as a dragon was nice, but if I was running around on the ground I never would have bought the game (straight combat, enemy AI was not that great for the most part, etc).

I can see your point that there may be a bit of snobbery in drawing a distinction between action RPG and RPG, but for the most part there is a pretty clear distinction. In general I like RPGs and dislike most action RPGs. I don't think action RPGs are beneath me (or whatever) I just don't enjoy what most of them concentrate on (equipment upgrading and hack and slash).
Recently there has been a move towards more 'true' RPGs and various category games are adding more complex RPG features, so perhaps the difference between action RPG and RPG will lessen.


There are several things I will disregard a game for, without some information or recommendation that it is worth checking out. The term 'action RPG' is one of these; if I've seen many, many games described as action RPGs, and for the most part do not enjoy most of them, then I am not downloading a 1GB demo on the off chance that it may be a good game.

Another big thing that can immediately turn me off a game is perspective. I do not like first person perspective; at best it can be ok, at worst it can cause dizziness or headaches (ie if you need to look in a direction other than where you are moving in order to be able to see enemy, etc). I passed on Wizardry 8 because of the first person perspective, until seeing a topic about it here, which convinced me that it would be worth trying out the demo (FPS actually works ok there with the turn based combat, and I bought the game). I've tried other demos of first person games since then, but found nothing I liked.



Quasimodo;

I also dislike complex action gameplay involving both hands. In theory I am against this as having combat based on the player's skills defeats the purpose of your character having stats. Practically, I am just not very good at twitch based gameplay, and dislike timed keyboard and/or mouse combinations (and I don't like it enough to be able to practice enough to get good at it).

I'm hoping that if there is action style combat, use of a gamepad will at least mitigate some of the problems I'd have using a keyboard.

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Ah, I get you, and am definitely in agreement about the first-person perspective. As to the other, just a matter of personal taste I suppose. (But how did I never hear about this other dragon game that I've seen mentioned in the last few days?! eek )

Recently there has been a move towards more 'true' RPGs and various category games are adding more complex RPG features, so perhaps the difference between action RPG and RPG will lessen.

That's one thing I'm hoping ED might contribute to (if the action-rpg title sticks, that is wink ).

@Larians: Adding the pause feature is a definite plus in my book. up I can't believe it WASN'T going to be there! Oh, and throw us some screenshots of the GUI when it gets presentable so we can do some more speculating. grin

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I don't think I Of The Dragon was very popular, honestly. I played the demo and as near as I could see the entire game was: you are a dragon, fly around flaming stuff.

While it was cool for ten minutes... Well, too repetitive.


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I of the Dragon (Wikipedia link) is nearly 4 years old, and I don't think it got much publicity when it came out. I've only seen a few references to it around, and a couple years ago I only found one or two places that still carried it, other than the publisher's webstore.

I think it has been mentioned here a few times recently (and previously in various suggestion topics) because it is one of the few RPG / action RPG games (that I know of) where a character can fly, so serves as a reference for combat or control discussion, etc.

The first area of the demo contains simple opponents with almost no AI. Fly just over treetop level and keep moving, and you will almost never get hit. The second level contains different and stronger opponents, a couple of which have a little better AI. In this area you should be able to level up enough to get access to a better spells, upgrade your existing attacks and possibly learn new ones (the fighter class gets a seeking fireball attack, in addition to a straight fireball and close range breath attack).
Based on the demo I was hoping there would be additional AI advances in each new area. There were new creatures in each area, with some variety, but no significant advances in AI. IMO there were enough changes in environment, etc, and new skills to keep it playable (though just barely at times).

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Well I don't mind the therm action RPG. To me it refers more to the combat system (eg: not turn based). The term action RPG has lost the "clone of diablo" thing. Some people call the witcher an action rpg.


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I describe the difference between action and story-based RPGs in much the same way as Elliot_Kane did earlier. In an action-RPG, the focus is the action/combat, with minimal interest in roleplaying (acting a character with a very particular personality), dialogue, and story. Action RPGs, to me, usually refer to the loot and level grinding games which I love, like the Diablos, Titan Quest, Dungeon Siege and the like, where the combat can be fast-paced and not necessarily relying on player skill over character skill. I put story-based RPGs on a separate branch. These are the games like Planescape: Torment, the Baldur's Gate series, etc. Some developers like calling their games action-RPGs where I would not.

For instance, Mass Effect was described as an action-RPG. However, the fact that I can put the game on the easiest difficulty and make combat insubstantial in the game, while focusing on story, dialogue, and characters (of which there was plenty of each), means that it may have had action-RPG elements but the focus wasn't the combat/action. There were huge stretches of the game where I had no combat whatsoever. Compare that to the Diablos; could you go for 30 minutes of actual gameplay (not including selling/trading items) without combat action? Of course not.

I expect that the use of the term "action-RPG" as it applies to Div2 is supposed to suggest that combat is an integral part of the game (i.e. that there's plenty of it) but that it isn't necessarily the focus, just as in Mass Effect. It's unlikely to be too twitchy, like an FPS game relying on player keyboard/mouse skills instead of character-based abilities. For the latter, I'm grateful. I don't care for twitch-based combat at all.

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Thanks for all the info, nice seeing what is going on.

Will the game support a usb gaming controller?
As for the pause, I was looking forward to the new action. I know Chrono Trigger (turn based battle rpg for Super Nintendo) had 2 options, active battles (monsters will attack if your not ready) or everyone takes turns so you can take longer to decide on what to do. Would it be too hard to implement that? Be awesome if it could be implemented.

As for the game possibly looking any better... I just got over the rehab from the drooling problem I developed from the first :Div:. Well... at least I got the Doctor's phone number on speed dial now.

Thanks again for going out of your way to update us smile

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After reading the four pages and seeing it turn into hairsplitting over the moniker the game will wear I'll just toss something out - and then run for cover. wink

If the game were a cross between the original Divine Divinity and Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion I would be a happy camper. I love both games. The flavor and style of the original with greatly increased (but quality) voice acting and real-time combat, a large free roaming world (but not level-scaled), good character development, NPCs with distinct personalities, a good mix of spoken and text dialog, a hero who speaks with a voice, fantastic music, a choice of first or third person perspective, beautiful graphics, intuitive interface, lots of NPCs and items to interact with, books to read - these are all things I love in a game. Neither DD or Oblivion was perfect in that regard, but I can always dream DD 2 will be. laugh I know that many of these things may have already been decided, it just my rambling laundry list of favorites.

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Originally Posted by LightningLockey
Will the game support a usb gaming controller?

Yes, at least for now. Posted earlier, in another topic:

Originally Posted by Lar_q
*Currently* the PC version supports both PC & Xbox360 interfaces (they are quite different from each other). We still need to figure out if we'll support games for windows and if we do, that means we'll need to ship with controller support (as it's one of the requirements). The press demonstration happened with a 360 controller because we were just in the process of implementing the PC interface. The presentation at Leipzig will be using the PC interface.

Sektor followed this up with a wikipedia link detailing the requirements for the MS 'Games for Windows' program. Deciding not to go for this program doesn't necessarily mean dropping controller support, so hopefully it will remain in regardless.

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About the whole 'action-rpg' discussion:

Personally, I'm not one who puts things under well-defined and mutually exclusive labels. This whole discussion about naming the thing seems kind of silly to me (pardon me saying so; I don't mean to offend anyone :whistle: ).

Does it really matter whether the combat in a game is more prone to hand-eye coordination or calculated stats? Or whether this sort of stuff falls under the term 'action' or not? The important thing is that we enjoy what we play, and respect other people for their likes and dislikes. And every now and then, try something new to see if it fits and be honest to yourself about whether you like it or not.

As a table-top RPG player (and GM), I know where the term roleplaying actually comes from and what it really means (to play the role of a different kind of person -- like in theater), but I also know that there are millions and millions of different sorts of players; one sort for each. Some players prefer more hack-and-slash combat, while other players prefer to participate in a story. Others just play because they want to be in some company of like-minded friends, and again others play to see their characters accumulate cool powers. In the end, we're all a mixture of these kinds of players and we all have our own preferences. It's something you can't easily define under labels. Everyone plays for their own reasons, and everyone's reasons are as valid as the next.

However, I can assure you (**warning** advertising mode **warning** wink ): as a table-top roleplayer who likes to actually roleplay and participate in deep story, but also do some kick-ass combat to level up with awesome new powers, I really get my fill with Divinity 2. And it's not even finished yet, so it will only get better!

Alright, enough with the preaching opa . I'm going to shut up now oops


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I kinda doubt turn-based combat will make its way into the game. A pause feature can provide similar benefits, though, as far deciding what attack to use and such.

Ok, ok, sorry for running off topic about the action-rpg thing. :blush: My whole point anyway was that I don't care what genre the game is classified as.

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Does it really matter whether the combat in a game is more prone to hand-eye coordination or calculated stats?

Yes. Yes, that matters very, very, very much in a game. Really. A lot.

The combat style is one of the main determining factors in whether I will like, and can play a game. One click (or a couple) per opponent results in a certain number of button/key presses in a given time frame. One click per attack can easily double to quadruple that amount of clicking. Having to use various key combinations to swing, dodge, parry, etc, greatly increases the number of key presses again. Even if I had the coordination and desire to try such a combat system, my wrists would not last nearly long enough for a 50-100 hour game (unless I took 200+ days to complete it). The tendons in the back of my hand got sore after playing I of the Dragon a few hours a day, and that was just using the up, right and left arrows to fly.

The reason I am hoping you keep gamepad support is that using it for movement would be much better than the keyboard. You have not revealed much about combat, but I suspect since it doesn't use a mouse cursor, whatever you came up with would have to be at least as good on a gamepad than on a keyboard and mouse. Even if there are a lot of button presses or combinations, the shape and button positions of a good gamepad should allow a more neutral hand positioning with less effort.

Ignoring the possibility of carpal tunnel syndrome inducing controls, I just do not like twitch based gameplay. I do not want to memorize a combination of key presses and practice them over and over until I can click out the right pattern within a game's tolerance whenever certain triggers appear onscreen.

From what I have seen so far, the combat could be anything from ok to poor. If it is worse than I suspect, it could literally make the game unplayable for me. I don't want the game to be unplayable.


Or whether this sort of stuff falls under the term 'action' or not?

Not directly, but I would like the game to do well. The way you choose to market the game will have a large impact on people's first impressions. Without other information about the game, some people may assume it is yet another Diablo clone. Maybe the action RPG term will attract more people than it turns off; maybe there are enough real RPG games coming out soon that people expect more than straight hack and slash, so the action description will not have as much of a negative connotation for some people...

Lar was the one who mentioned seeing reactions online that the game may be too action oriented. I just pointed out that calling it an action RPG (and releasing mostly action style screenshots) isn't necessarily helping with that perception.


If you really didn't want us splitting hairs over 'minor' points, though, you'd give us more information about the game, so we'd have better things to discus or debate. :hihi:


PS just so you don't forget, twitch based combat sucks.

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@Raze

I agree 100%. For RPG's twitch based combat does suck!

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Chrono Trigger was just an example of what options were available, wasn't comparing the different combat schemes. This game is already designed for real time combat.

As for remembering combo's, that be the "controller style". With keyboard style it would be like div where you pause to execute a different skill.

In CT you were able to change to the slower paced combat in the middle of the game (be switching from controller to keyboard in this case) if you were just having too hard of a time. Then can switch back after the tough battle if you rather use the controller.

Maybe both can work at same time?


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Raze certainly saved me a lot of typing with that, I have to say! laugh I agree with most of it.

I think it is a huge mistake to miss-classify a game (Or assume that classifications do not matter) as the vast majority of people reading the classification will have certain expectations for it. Someone buying ED and expecting a Diablo-style game may not want to play anything more complex (Action-RPGs are vastly more popular than normal RPGs after all, which is why there are so many of them). As such, they may be less than happy when they find out their game is nothing like...

As a tabletop gamer/GM with around twenty years playing experience myself, I am happy to hear ED hits the spot for a fellow tabletop gamer smile

Regarding twitching - don't care as long as the controls are simple enough. Love Jade Empire, after all. I know it WILL matter to others though, so it's a point worth clarifying.


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LightningLockey;
I hope that if the PC version supports gamepads that it allows keyboard controls at the same time (it should). I've switched back and forth in other game, anyway. I would want the option of moving / fighting with the gamepad, but still have the keyboard hotkeys to select skills, etc. You would at least need keyboard control in the save menu, to make named saves, unless ED is using save 'slots' (which I think unlikely).

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Originally Posted by Raze
Even if I had the coordination and desire to try such a combat system, my wrists would not last nearly long enough for a 50-100 hour game (unless I took 200+ days to complete it). The tendons in the back of my hand got sore after playing I of the Dragon a few hours a day, and that was just using the up, right and left arrows to fly.

I can't compare with 'I of the Dragon', as I've never played that game (I'm a family father with a currently expanding number of kids, so I don't have much time to play anymore frown ), but I can compare with DD for you. In terms of clicking-rate, I personally feel that ED will be much easier on the hands than DD was.

What's more, please don't forget that ED will not be a combat-only type of game. There will be enough story and dialog as well as beautiful scenery to enjoy while giving your hands a rest laugh

Originally Posted by Raze
You have not revealed much about combat...

Unfortunately, we can't. Trust me, as one of the programmers who worked most on combat and combat-related features, I would like to tell you all about it, but our hands are tied and our lips are sealed. For now... smirk

Originally Posted by Raze
The way you choose to market the game will have a large impact on people's first impressions.

Of course, you're absolutely right there. We have to label this baby; it's just the way marketing works. But that's what I find so sad. The reason I said this was not to criticize, but to philosophize about how our business (and, actually, all businesses and commercialization these days) work. Everything has to be labeled and categorized, ready for instant consumation. But I'm getting offtopic and opa again, and everybody's probably sleep by now, so I will shut up once more biggrin

Originally Posted by Raze
PS just so you don't forget, twitch based combat sucks.

We definitely won't forget wink


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I like to really be taking in completely by a game, have as much control over the character as possible.

I've played my share of mmo's and in the department of combat they seriously lack, I can eat, drink something etc whilst in mid combat. The mechanics of click a monster and you start attacking it just doesn't do it for me as far as combat goes. On the other hand the Diablo trademark 'click click click click click click click clickity clickclick' is just as mind-numbing. TES Dark Messiah beeing and 1st person action RPG was a pleasant tho short experience where it felt like I really was in control of combat instead of rolling dice every second.

So I'm not into overly complex combat systems, a simple system that still gives me control over every action is IMO the way to go.

I don't believe gameplay mechanics should suffer from the limitations of the roots of the genre, that meaning that RPG's rolling the dice was a limitation since you had to fantasize this all and rules had to be set to make it enjoyable. Or I would have just used my special attack to one-shot every mob I encounter. A PC or Console game takes away a lot of the imagination but it does give you the chance to have the combat more depend on more than just stats & odds.


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Hi all,

My 2 cents (well it turned out to be 5 cents wink )

Key remapping: consider this a confirmation that you can remap your keys.

Action RPG vs RPG with a lot of action in it - obviously I prefer the latter statement as I made it my focus during all of my Leipzig presentations. Without delving into a detailed discussion here, I think I understand what you all mean as it reflects my attitude towards RPG's in general.

The only reason I like games like Diablo 2 is because I could play them with my friends and in that context, the entire item fever thing and being able to explore a vast world seemed to be sufficient. Playing it solo, I found little to attract me and I never finished it in single player.
I missed questing, puzzles and above all, choice. Choice obviously has a very big production impact so there are always limits, but that doesn't mean you can't try to put it in. Most games we label action-RPGs don't even bother and if they do, it's done in such a bad way that you wished they hadn't done it all.

Once you start introducing choice, you automatically find yourself in the position where you have to create an interesting setting, call it universe if you want, where the inhabitants and story react on the choices you make, and where the choices become more interesting if you add depth to both the universe and the characters. That's quite a complex undertaking and probably the dominant reason a lot of developers shy away from it. But it does make the game a lot more interesting and I'm quite sure that if Diablo 2 had offered choice, I'd have been more interested in it's single player mode. But then again, it's multiplayer would've suffered heavily from it.

I consider the choices you make in a RPG to be as much part of your character development as your stats and equipment, and I prefer it when players stumble into situations where they have to make choices as a result of their own actions, as it makes them feel more involved. The simplest way to do that is to litter the world with opportunities to experience interesting things and leave it upon the players to discover them. You don't enforce situations upon the player, and it's their exploration choices that bring on these interesting situations. The second thing you can do is have those interesting situations involve interesting choices. That leads to a fairly dynamic experience in which the player starts geting the feeling that his actions matter and it gives him a sense of freedom in a reactive universe.

When I hear action-RPG, I immediately have the reaction, no choice, just item fever and it's exactly that kind of thing which we tried to avoid with div and div2. I like item/skills/stats fever and a combat system that supports that fever, but I want it to be in an environment where I have choices. And if there's no choice present for whatever reason, then at least I expect something interesting to happen after I defeated a number of foes. No combat as a reward for combat if you want. In most action-RPGs this is done by cutscenes, but my personal preference is something that involves the game world as otherwise I lose my immersion. And what better thing than an interesting choice that affects the game world ?

I've got this acronym by which I judge a RPG, it's called FUME. Rate the Freedom to develop your character, rate the Universe in which you can develop your characrter, rate the Motivation to develop your character and rate the Enemies against which you can develop your character, and if the game scores high on all four fronts, you most likely have a pretty cool RPG.

Or put otherwise

F=all the actions and choices I can make in the game world
U=the quality of the simulation and the visualisation of the world
M=the story that drives me forward
E=the combat

Most action RPGs only take care of the M & E part, with total disregard for the F & U. Good RPGs try to offer all four, though that makes it exponentially more complicated to develop.

We're trying to get you a good FUME experience, and to cut a lot story short, that's why I prefer the term RPG with action in it rather than action RPG smile

As for the E, the combat part which actually was the focus of a lot of the discussion here, we want to make it accessible and tactically interesting while still getting some adrenalin in your body when you're playing. The pause button is one where you pause the game, select an action to execute after which the game executes the action and you can continue playing (or pause again to do another action). I think it'll take care of the accessibility which seems to be the dominant concern here and if we pace things right, it shouldn't prevent the adrenalin (and you're not forced to use it). The needing to pick the right skills and right position finally takes care of the tactical part.

Lar




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Sektor;
In terms of clicking-rate, I personally feel that ED will be much easier on the hands than DD was.

That's good to know. I find left click and hold much easier on the hands than WASD (or equivalent) for movement, but if you can make that statement, then at least I know combat can not be extremely micro-managed.
BTW, combat in I of the Dragon was kind of like a laid back flight simulator (using a hang glider that could dive, climb and breath fire/ice/poison). I used the up arrow to fly forward, the left/right arrow keys to change direction (most of the time high maneuverability was not required) and the spacebar to attack (IIRC).

I know ED will not be combat-only (though the controls are still relevant in non-combat situations). The discussion on combat systems was an extension of the 'action RPG' term discussion that Lar started.... um... or something like that. :hihi:

Anyway, I assumed you couldn't talk about combat yet, since you weren't doing so. I was hoping when the playtests started (or finished) you might release so info, but if not I'm sure you would in plenty of time before release.



Lar;
Thanks for the description of some of your design process / philosophy.

As for the 'action RPG' term on the Div2 site, since we pretty much share the same opinion of it, I will not bring it up again (if it remains, there are obviously other factors involved).

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Me, I'm rather an extreme example of a role-player.

Insofar, as I try to avoid combat because I don't like it much.

Okay, a fight every now and then - there's nothing too bad with it.

But a game which defines quest-solving only by combat, like BG did in most cases, and with is carried out to an extreme ( nothing but battle !) in Sacred and in Blizzard's D2, is not my case.

One of several reasons I prefer non-combat over combat is that the non-combat means of solving are mostly the more difficult ones.

You have to plan.

You have to plan around several corners, maybe.

From an intellectual point of view, non-combat behaviour is more challenging - especually if the reputation thingy is quite far evolved. If people react to what I do, then it defenitively requires more thinking from my side to play out a character so that people (read: NPCs) are really allowing me to solve a quest via for example "social skills".

An example for this is the div quest with the hidden treasure in the park. You get this quest only with a certain reputation. And in order to receive this reputation, you must plan quite far into the future.

This is kind of "choices", too.


Hack & slay isn't intellectually stimulating at all to me. It just needs ... Well, hack & slay. wink

The only planning - thus using the brain - is in D2, for example, in planning what kind of eqipment do I need in order to defeat the next major boss. In principle, this is simple calculation of pros and cons of let's say an armor plate piece.

Another point in planning of D2 is in into which direction I shall develop my character.
Thus arose the term of what I know in German language as "Verskillen", I don't know what's the English word for that.
It just means picking the wrong set of skills / taking emphasis on the wrong set of skills.

In a rather free-play RPG, this shouldn't happen, at least this is my opinion. The verskilling of characters means kind of an limitation: You can use the wrong way, the wrong road.
In a free-form RPG, imho all ways should be open.
But that's just my opinion.

To sum it up: Hack & Slay is totally nonstimulating to me from an intellectual point of view.
The contrary can be said of PS:T, for example.

Drakensang, to use a current example, is a middle thing. In the Bloodmountains area, there's the choice to suppoprt the group of the God of the Order etc. or to help Witches. The whole gameplay in this area is affected by this.

On the other hand, there are no choices (the money budged seems unfortunately have cut down so many things, some even the devs wanted in) when you steal from someone and get caught if you steal and get *not* caught, there should be no consequences, obvioiusly).
There are a few similar cases to this.



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Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
To sum it up: Hack & Slay is totally nonstimulating to me from an intellectual point of view.

Agreed, and as far as ED is concerned, you luckily have nothing to fear on that score. kitty


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@Lar

I do like the sound of a well rounded RPG for a change, and I appreciate the addition of the pause both for the sake of my carpal tunnel and well as the tactical advantage.

I do note that having to continually drive your character around the screen with the WASD keys is also hard on the wrists and is more distracting than a simple mouse click.

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Personally i care alot about the choices you can make in an RPG, it makes you feel alot more involved and adds replayability.

Character development is very important for me too because i just love trying to make a powerfull/interesting character, it also adds replayability because you can make different sorts of characters if the skill system etc is good.

The story of a game is also very important to me and i guess about everyone else that loves RPG's. A good story makes you feel more involved and increases the overall quality of the game.

Story involved enemies are important too because they are part of the story and are a/the challenge you must overcome. Normal enemies not really related to the story are less important but should fit the game's environment and thats adds credibilty.

It is really great to hear that you are trying to give Div2 a good FUME expierence.

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Lar...

I love the FUME philosophy, I have to say. Reading through your post, I was nodding in total agreement like one of those car mascots laugh

A developer who really and truly understands RPGs... smile

Really looking forward to ED, now smile


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Elliot,

Imagine how great the games would be from companies that have 100+ people working on them if they built them like Larian does.

Ah well, they are too arrogant to see the light and shall dwell in the darkness of their own ignorance.


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LightningLockey...

I think that's pretty much the ultimate Gamer's dream...


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Great thread! I wish all communities were like that. It´s rare to see a dev himself posting, but we see it here smile

QUESTION: what about co-op mode? Is it really trashed or we may be see it before release? smile

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As Lar explained in the topic I'd love to see a coop-mp (for those who have not seen it), multi-player support was put on hold due to the difficulty reconciling that style of play with the complex story and quest system they wanted to create. As it is virtually impossible that they will be dramatically changing the story or quest system at this point, multi-player support before release is extremely unlikely.

Lar did use the work 'hold', though, so it at least leaves open the possibility that they may at least be considering a way to add some form of multi-player support in a hypothetical later patch or expansion. Maybe.
If they have spare time after release, though, I'd rather modding tools be given priority over multi-player support, if it boils down to a choice between the two (which it probably will not, as there are other factors to consider in either case).

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The only thing they can do is create expansion quests that will be impossible to beat solo. The major problem will be hacked characters going online as they are saved on private pc's instead of a server maintained by Larian.

Now if there is a summoning skill that a 2nd player can take the role of the summoned creature it be rather interesting.


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I' d like to know if when we finish the game we can continue to play in the same world...or we must begin a new game...

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I guess that would depend on whether monsters respawn with each game or if dead=dead as in DD. Or else maybe something like the battlefields of BD (but better implemented) could be a feature.

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The story has ended, quests are done, what is it that there is left to do in the world? Just killing monsters? That sounds a bit dull.
Let it be done at the end and invest the time in a mod toolkit instead I would say.


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Originally Posted by Raze

As Lar explained in the topic I'd love to see a coop-mp (for those who have not seen it), multi-player support was put on hold due to the difficulty reconciling that style of play with the complex story and quest system they wanted to create. As it is virtually impossible that they will be dramatically changing the story or quest system at this point, multi-player support before release is extremely unlikely.

Lar did use the work 'hold', though, so it at least leaves open the possibility that they may at least be considering a way to add some form of multi-player support in a hypothetical later patch or expansion. Maybe.
If they have spare time after release, though, I'd rather modding tools be given priority over multi-player support, if it boils down to a choice between the two (which it probably will not, as there are other factors to consider in either case).


I still have hope, for I love co-op smile

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Originally Posted by Myrthos
The story has ended, quests are done, what is it that there is left to do in the world? Just killing monsters? That sounds a bit dull.
Let it be done at the end and invest the time in a mod toolkit instead I would say.


This game is getting compared to Oblivion quite a lot, but as there pops no other game in mind, i'l have to use the newest Elder Scrolls game as an example too.
In Oblivion you had the main questline, which you could finish whenever you wanted, and continue side quests and guild quests after you finished the main quest.

Ofcours it all depends on the story of Div2, if the main plot changes the gaming world drasticly, it would make sense that we're not able to continue playing after we finished the storyline.


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You already loose side quests you have not completed yet at certain events in the game (like all the dragonslayer side quests becoming obsolete once you become a dragon). Finishing the game would be an event that makes a lot of side quests obsolete I think. So I doubt there is anything left to do.
They could be generating all kinds of quests after that point, but that would require additional QA time as well. I hope they will spend that time on the mod kit instead.


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What is the point in a mod kit anyway? To let everyone create their own quest or something? Why not let Larian start work on their next project when this is over. Some things are better left alone when finished.


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Originally Posted by Myrthos
The story has ended, quests are done, what is it that there is left to do in the world? Just killing monsters? That sounds a bit dull.
Let it be done at the end and invest the time in a mod toolkit instead I would say.


Replay it, choose other options, other responses and enjoy it again.

Games tend to end at a point, and with the free world in ED I'm sure if you want to, you can do all avaible quests before you finnish the game.


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Yes you are right about that. I was referring to continue playing after you finsihed the game without starting a new one.

I think it will take you a very long time to play out all he quest options though.


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I would much rather have a game worth 3 or 4 play throughs of 30 hrs each with different roleplaying options than one long 100 hr game with one character and no reason to replay. (i.e. I would rather not have a game like Oblivion)

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Playing after the end of the main story line could also allow you to see the results of your actions. You could see towns being rebuilt, talk to various NPCs and find out how things turned out for them, have people congratulate you or throw a feast in your honour, etc. In order to do this right, though, it could take a fair bit of work (extra dialog, etc) for little benefit (nice to have, but probably not missed if it wasn't in). Cutscenes during the credits could serve a similar purpose with less effort.

In one of the RPGs on the original Nintendo you could run around an talk to people after the end of the game. You pretty much just got a handful of random responses from most NPCs, but it was nice to do anyway. I'm not sure it makes sense on the scale it would need to be to stay consistent with the rest of ED, depending on what the end of the main story is.



What is the point in a mod kit anyway?

Mods can range from simply adding areas or tweaking skills, monsters, balancing, etc to creating entirely separate games. Many of the mods created for Neverwinter Nights were considered superior to the official single player campaign, and helped it become more popular than it probably would have been otherwise. Of course ED isn't starting off with a weak story like NWN, but mods could still add value and extend the life of the game (if Larian does end up releasing mod tools, we may be able to play ED until DD3 is release biggrin ).

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Yeh, thought that is all mod kits did. With how the game is made story wise, probably will be more of a waste of time.

About exploring the world after the game ends. There was a sega game called Sword of Vermillion that allowed you to walk back to your home town after you beat the game. Of course it was a very linear game where you had only one path to go and it took 15 minutes to wander all the way back home. Also all monsters were dead so you didn't have any battles. Some players I've read named themselves "kong" to be called King Kong by the villagers at the end of the game.

I think there were a hand full of old games that did that now that I'm thinking back. Thinking back that far is scary, spiders don't even make webs that far back any more *shudder*.


Every time there I run into trouble on the road, there is always a dwarf at the bottom of it. Don't they know how to drive above ground?
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What I'd *really* like to see is feedback !

When I've solved a quest, then I'd like to have the opportunity to go back and as the initial quest -giver about it.

Not only because of some rewards, but also for how the NPC "sees" the result.

Even more, it would be nice, if former quest-givers would comment of developments within the region, some of which the PC is responsible for.

An example from Drakensang is one boss of a band of highwaymen, who has been driven out of his former living place, a ruin of a castle. So now he and his band live in an different part of that wood because of this.

After my character "cleared" the ruin, it was free for him and his band to live there again.

I didn't go back to tell him that, because the other inhabitants of the wood (who to some extend were involved - directly or indirectly - in the events around this ruined castle) didn't give any feedback on the PC "clearing" the ruins. So I expected from this highwayman no comment either.

But this is in fact the kind of feedback I'd like to see: feedback on current developments, some of which the PC is responsible for, some which affect the NPCs directly or even indirectly.


At the end, if my character goes back to the place he or she started the journey (the game), there the people might comment on him and on his deeds, too.

And maybe even declare him King or her Queen, if she had been good in the "minds" of the NPCs ...


Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 05/09/08 08:03 PM.

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Regarding feedback - I think that flows directly from our ambition to put in consequences to the choices you make. In the presentation I gave in Leipzig there was the example of the the farmer who got betrayed by his wife. I ratted on her and as a result she ran off to her lover. When I would've gone to the blacksmith I'd have seen that she now lives with the blacksmith and is very angry at me. Likewise, her former husband is very sad though he is happy that I told him about it. Other choices would've had different consequences, which would've resulted in different feedback.

Regarding mods - It's really a question of where we put our effort in. Right now it's in the game and not in providing a mod toolkit, though obviously we have a whole range of tools to make the game. It would take some effort to make them usable for the community, but if the opportunity would arise, it'd be something I'd very much like to do. I guess it'll really depend on how much demand there is for such a toolkit. I think it might be more sensible to link a mod toolkit with a multiplayer mode, than just release it for single player.

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Originally Posted by Lar_q
Regarding feedback - I think that flows directly from our ambition to put in consequences to the choices you make. In the presentation I gave in Leipzig there was the example of the the farmer who got betrayed by his wife. I ratted on her and as a result she ran off to her lover. When I would've gone to the blacksmith I'd have seen that she now lives with the blacksmith and is very angry at me. Likewise, her former husband is very sad though he is happy that I told him about it. Other choices would've had different consequences, which would've resulted in different feedback.


This is awesome.

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A modkit is awsome even without MP.
I totally understand if you want to work on the game instead of a toolkit atm but i would be very happy to see a modkit released after the game's release. If it would come with MP as you implied is still possible that would be even more awsome but not necessary.

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Originally Posted by NeroJB
Originally Posted by Lar_q
Regarding feedback - I think that flows directly from our ambition to put in consequences to the choices you make. In the presentation I gave in Leipzig there was the example of the the farmer who got betrayed by his wife. I ratted on her and as a result she ran off to her lover. When I would've gone to the blacksmith I'd have seen that she now lives with the blacksmith and is very angry at me. Likewise, her former husband is very sad though he is happy that I told him about it. Other choices would've had different consequences, which would've resulted in different feedback.


This is awesome.


Agreed.


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Originally Posted by Lar_q
Regarding feedback - I think that flows directly from our ambition to put in consequences to the choices you make. In the presentation I gave in Leipzig there was the example of the the farmer who got betrayed by his wife. I ratted on her and as a result she ran off to her lover. When I would've gone to the blacksmith I'd have seen that she now lives with the blacksmith and is very angry at me. Likewise, her former husband is very sad though he is happy that I told him about it. Other choices would've had different consequences, which would've resulted in different feedback.


I would assume this would mean higher prices for the blacksmith's goods as well, but I guess it could go either way. His mistress is peaved at you, so he raises prices, or even refuses to do business with you. OR, he is happy that you spilled the beans and his lady is now with him all the time, so he favors you with lower prices. OR, he thinks he had a really good deal before, was getting his on the side without the hassles of a fulltime nag, and now takes out his biggest cleaver and wants to cut your head off! laugh Either way, it all sounds cool!


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