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#356156 - 09/07/08 05:48 AM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: Elliot_Kane]
Equisilus Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 88
Loc: Canada
 Originally Posted By: Elliot_Kane
'Monty Haul' is a tabletop RPG term for a game that has little to no risk but offers massive reward. It sometimes gets confused with 'Power Gamer' to the annoyance of Power Gamers everywhere \:D


Just for some further info, "Monty Haul" is derived from "Monty Hall", the host of Let's Make a Deal. Most folks from outside North America and/or who are too young to remember the show wouldn't get the reference unless it's been explained at some point.

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#356160 - 09/07/08 10:55 AM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: Equisilus]
Elliot_Kane Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 1541
Loc: London, England
Thanks, Equisilus \:\)

I must admit, though I know the term I wasn't really familiar with where it came from.
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#356161 - 09/07/08 11:14 AM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: Elliot_Kane]
LewsTherinKinslayer13 Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 8265
Loc: Seattle
In a single player game I say why not.

Give me scorpions, give me hell spikes, and give me meteor!
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#356162 - 09/07/08 01:05 PM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: LewsTherinKinslayer13]
Greentea Offline
stranger

Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 5
Personally, I wouldn't want an overpowered skill. To me, such a skill would be as useless as an underpowered skill. It would be like a cheat code that's taking up a skill slot, which could have been better used by a balanced skill.

One of the things I want to see in an RPG is as little useless skills as possible. Of course I don't mind if a skill becomes obsolete once you've leveled up enough, just don't make it useless from the beginning.
All skills of the same level should be equally useful, just in different ways. I enjoy exploring the skill trees and trying out all kinds of "builds", and anything that takes away from that is not something I would want. The point is, if you need an overpowered skill, the game has failed (or you're exceedingly bad at playing it, but there should be proper cheats for that).

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#356177 - 09/08/08 02:28 AM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: Greentea]
Lar_q Offline



Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 749
If memory serves me right, scorpion was very powerful on purpose but we misbalanced the treasure tables/cost on those things and you weren't supposed to find that many of them. Then we discovered that a lot of people actually quite enjoyed using them, so we left it like that.

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#356179 - 09/08/08 02:40 AM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: Lar_q]
flixerflax Offline

addict

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 680
Loc: Wandering
Yeah I have to admit the death scorpions were lifesavers at times. Drop one, cast aura of command...it's all but invincible and you can't banish it. That thing will be with you until the end of the game!

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#356181 - 09/08/08 02:57 AM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: flixerflax]
Lar_q Offline



Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 749
That was a bug btw ;\)

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#356195 - 09/08/08 11:46 AM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: Lar_q]
Morbo Offline

veteran

Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 4205
Loc: Omicron Persei 8
 Originally Posted By: Lar_q
That was a bug btw ;\)


Scorpions are arthropods, and arachnids. Not bugs!!!
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#356201 - 09/08/08 03:55 PM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: Morbo]
flixerflax Offline

addict

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 680
Loc: Wandering
Sorry again, YellowShark, for going on the "attack." No disrespect meant.

High-powered vs. overpowered:
I'll use the examples from DD that Lews mentioned since we don't know about the new skills yet. Sure, give me death scorpions, but make them hard to find, as Lar said. Imagine if you could only get them from Tingalf, for example, a transient NPC. And no aura of command. You could still unleash them on Josie or the really tough baddies, but you wouldn't be able to have them follow you everywhere doing all the killing while you lift not a finger. Give me meteor and lightning, or some armageddon skill like Raze mentioned that scorches the earth, but put a casting delay on it, or a high mana req, or more varied resistances on the enemies, etc.

Balance is key, as others have said. To get the effect that some casual gamers might want, leave in the high-powered stuff, but nerf the enemies or magic requirements...just make the "easy" mode really easy. \:\)

p.s. Morbo, bugs are arthropods too! Don't discriminate!

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#356206 - 09/08/08 06:12 PM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: flixerflax]
koimaster Offline
stranger

Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 5
I am going to have to agree with the topic creator. I actually DO LIKE overpowered spells. For me a game should be fun. I don't want to stress over not being able to beat a boss.
I don't have loads of time on my hands and a challenge is not that fun for me. The only challenging game i love are puzzle games.

I want to enjoy a game for its scenery, great music, story and gameplay.



However, instead of having overpowered spells, can't you just make a 'super easy' difficulty level?

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#356208 - 09/08/08 07:40 PM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: koimaster]
flixerflax Offline

addict

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 680
Loc: Wandering
can't you just make a 'super easy' difficulty level?

Exactly my point. Balance the game for the normal difficulty level, nerf it super-easy style for the casual gamers, and turn up the heat on the hard level for us challenge-loving, masochistic gamers.

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#356209 - 09/08/08 08:16 PM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: flixerflax]
Elliot_Kane Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 1541
Loc: London, England
 Originally Posted By: flixerflax
can't you just make a 'super easy' difficulty level?

Exactly my point. Balance the game for the normal difficulty level, nerf it super-easy style for the casual gamers, and turn up the heat on the hard level for us challenge-loving, masochistic gamers.


Works for me \:\)

Sounds like the perfect solution all round \:\)
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#356210 - 09/08/08 10:23 PM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: Elliot_Kane]
LewsTherinKinslayer13 Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 8265
Loc: Seattle
I loved them so much Lar, rofl. they made the game so awesome. Just run around dropping scorpions, and go and pick up the rewards! They made things alot easier then it would have been normally.
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#356223 - 09/09/08 11:12 AM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: LewsTherinKinslayer13]
Greever Offline
member

Registered: 08/19/08
Posts: 140
One could argue the same for putting cheatcodes in games.

Frankly to me there is little difference between using a Win-all skill and turning on Godmode or giving myself an endgame weapon.

I do understand the need for cheat codes in games. Some players find for instance the story and quests a lot more entertaining than the combat part of a game. I myself have played some games in godmode simply because I want to continue through the story instead of grinding through endless mobs fighting a combat system I find completely boring.

Most PC games have cheatcodes, you don't have to use them, but they are there for those who want to skip certain parts of the game.

As developers we try to make everything both fun and challenging. But there is no magical formula which makes everybody like every aspect of the game.

We tried to allow for as many different playstyles as we can think of and get in the game. I'm sure everybody will find some things in the game they absolutely love and things which they don't really care for. Not forcing the player to things he doesn't like is empowering the game in my eyes.

Okay, enough ranting.

-- Greever

Usual disclaimer:
All opinions in this post are my own. No offense was meant to anyone. Everything promised is subject to change; Unfortunately I can't predict the future.

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#356225 - 09/09/08 01:17 PM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: Elliot_Kane]
Freaker98 Offline
member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 128
Loc: Belgium
 Originally Posted By: Elliot_Kane
 Originally Posted By: flixerflax
can't you just make a 'super easy' difficulty level?

Exactly my point. Balance the game for the normal difficulty level, nerf it super-easy style for the casual gamers, and turn up the heat on the hard level for us challenge-loving, masochistic gamers.


Works for me \:\)

Sounds like the perfect solution all round \:\)


Yes, no overpowered spells but a easy difficulty so the newbs can still finish the game.

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#356234 - 09/09/08 04:36 PM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: Lar_q]
YellowShark Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 61
Loc: Belgium
 Originally Posted By: Lar_q
If memory serves me right, scorpion was very powerful on purpose but we misbalanced the treasure tables/cost on those things and you weren't supposed to find that many of them. Then we discovered that a lot of people actually quite enjoyed using them, so we left it like that.

I'm impressed .To me it means that you really think about how to provide fun for a lot of different people and you base your decisions on that,rather then just do what's usual.
That's really nice.

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#356235 - 09/09/08 04:41 PM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: flixerflax]
YellowShark Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 61
Loc: Belgium
 Originally Posted By: flixerflax
Sorry again, YellowShark, for going on the "attack." No disrespect meant.


No harm done,Flixerflax.I'm really pleased this has turned into an interesting exchange of ideas.

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#356237 - 09/09/08 05:49 PM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: YellowShark]
Equisilus Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 88
Loc: Canada
Yep, difficulty levels are the way to go for making the game easy/hard (rather than the overpowered skills for anyone). What are the intentions for difficulty levels for Div2?

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#356238 - 09/09/08 06:03 PM Re: Should Div2 have some overpowered skills? [Re: Equisilus]
lepel Offline
member

Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 112
Loc: Belgium
imo overpowered skills are just cheats for those that don't want to admit to themselves they are cheating. I'd rather see some cheats than overpowered skills. Especially if there are really challenging fights I usually cheat when I replay a game.
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