Larian Studios Forums Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis (English) Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis Please help me understand Sassan [SPOILERS]

OK, here's what I have gathered.

A long time ago, Sassan was the girlfriend of the evil Laiken. Laiken gave her a ring, I guess. To enter the Battle Tower, Laiken killed Sassan and used her blood to enter. He then took her ring and put it in his study, and bound her spirit to her grave, then pit a wind curse over it because she hates wind or something.

The Dragon Knight comes along, and dispels the wind curse. Sassan, who is dead and incorporeal, her spirit tells the Dragon Knight to bring her back her ring so she can come back to life.

The Dragon Knight brings Sassan her ring back, and she comes back to life. Not as a zombie, but as a living, breathing person... How exactly does that work? She was dead, but after bringing her ring back, she returns to life, no questions asked. Can someone (Larian) please explain that? Thanks.

Ah, I thought no one will notice that, but suddenly: a sane person appears :P

Congratulations, Stabbey you've found one of many logical flaws in D2 plot (there is a tons of such). We did such hard work to revive and rescue Ygerna from HoE: followed Maxos footsteps, killed Bhaal, found Sigil and Shied, destroyed tons of Stone Fortresses, acquired Dragon Power... but what we did to revive Ssassan? Right, we bring back to her spirit a ring. Just plain simple ring...

SENSE.
LOGIC.
There is none,. Not even a little.

So regardless of the person, their talents or manner of death, exactly the same methods should work to resurrect them?

Ygerna's father was a necromancer, but her part in his research involved kidnapping children. She was at least moderately strong as a witch, but still only about 20 when she was beheaded (and then soul-forged to Damian, in a variation of that spell he had to come up with on the spot).

Sassan was older, and Laiken was doing much more advanced research. Whether she became suspicious of Laiken or not, she had all kinds of time to prepare for her own resurrection. Laiken may have even helped her with that, assuming it was done before he found out he needed her blood.
The ritual Laiken did to unseal the battle tower may have resulted in Sassan remaining as a ghost, or that may have been the usual anger / unresolved business method of ghost production. The candle trigger and windy grave may have been Laiken's method to keep her ghost away, but still available if he wanted to gloat or needed information, or something. Alternately, it could be a test Sassan set up, since there was no point standing around at her grave if there was no one around strong enough to help her get revenge on Laiken. Rather than being a 'plain simple ring', it was the key to complete the resurrection.

There was yet another method of resurrection in Divine Divinity (aside from the blessing ritual), where a necromancer made preparations, and then required some time to pass before skeleton servants would pull 4 levers, in order, to activate the mechanism that would bring him back. Though that method didn't quite work as planned, he did return alive rather than as a zombie / skeleton.

Don't get started on Y'Gerna, either. That was also strange. Her head was cut off but her body didn't decay.






That's fine and all. The problem is that the game doesn't even begin to explain any of that, hence the confusion.



He came back as a Mummy-type enemy. I'm not sure that he came back "alive", not completely anyway, as he immediately realized he was suffering "mortal pain" and asked to be killed.

Raze


Just to prove or support something people/fanbois (no offence) always trying to make things difficult or look difficult, like, to show that everything is not so easy and simple as someone says.

Occama's Razor



Factological proof please, from game's plot.


Factological proof please, from game's plot.


Factological proof please, from game's plot.


An arcade gameplay thing for fun (so-called "puzzle element") now is a part of a plot and setting?
That's why I love fanbois - they always delivers :P (no offence)


"Alternately", "could be", "was", "rather then"...


yeah, right, so many methods, and yet no logical system about magic system in Divinity Universe. Not even mention the fact that D2 almost cut off every connections with previous games in setting/plot (except the main line).


Everything you say is just a suggestions, there is no way to prove it. And not because we don't know everything yet, but because the plot and setting in D2 is so poor and unpolished so there is just nothing to talk about. Many aspects "unsynced" and differs so much it's even confuses and left only one question: "HOW SO?" "WHY IS THAT SO?".

Stabbey

Yeah, right.
You know, the main plot line of D2 was unclear 'till the end. For example, russian translation team got completely different manual with different story (it was beta). Consider the fact that they started to work @ translation in q3 of 2009... it symbolises.

-------

I'm not trying to say all these mistakes make the game "bad", I'm just trying to say "Don' take it's plot and setting too serious". It is like... a Batman's one. Low-level fiction scenario for a day-fun.

Game is still awesome, consider the fact there is not so much RPGs nowadays

Hello!

Adding more fuel to the fire-- what confused me was her "neutral" attitude toward you for trading! Whaaa? You do even less for others and they lower their prices! You reunite Sassan's spirit with her "beautiful" body... and she's neutral? Maybe she feels all that was compensated for by her 'assistance' in the battle tower?

Ah well. It's only a game after all. A fun one to play.

~~CierraShore

So... because you don't think something makes sense, Occam's Razor proves there can be no explanation?
You can certainly argue that this quest was slapped together without any thought, but being the simplest explanation does not necessarily make it the correct one.

It doesn't take a fanboi to be able to think of possible explanations for things not mentioned specifically in the game.

From the Child of Chaos, page 24 (pdf included in the 17.7MB D2:ED fansite kit), "...Ygerna was a remarkable alluring girl although, he noted, several years older than Damian". Damian was 15 (joined the paladins on his 13th birthday, bottom of page 12, and trained for 2 years, page 23), so at most Ygerna is about 20.
Sassan's dialog, history and personality all give the impression, at least to me, that she is not just a teenager (feel free to show proof that this is wrong, though).
The ages are only relevant as far as experience with resurrection goes.

If Sassan suspected Laiken, or was otherwise concerned about coming back from the dead, then she had time to prepare. If there was 'factological proof' about that in the game then Stabbey wouldn't have posted in the first place. No RPG game explains everything or has the complete history of everything and everyone.

Candles were used to trigger a summoning in Divine Divinity, as well as hidden doorways / passages in DD and BD. It hardly takes a fanboi to propose something similar here.


"Alternately", "could be", "was", "rather then"...

Yes, and what is your point? Can I not suggest logical theories that could fill in the missing information? Nobody jumped into topics about Needleman's history or the plotline of the add-on to demand proof rather than conjecture.
In any case, I'm not trying to prove anything in particular happened, just that it is possible to have an elaborate and simple resurrection in different situations in the same gameworld.

The ring being the key to complete the resurrection was not conjecture, though, since getting the ring did in fact complete the resurrection.


Um... did you play DD or BD? There are new areas in D2:ED, but the plot continued. Was nothing suppose to change or get added in subsequent games?


There were grave robbers in DD. It is hardly a stretch to think the Black Ring might dig up a grave, or that Damian would order it. Food, etc, is delivered all over Rivellon in crates, so presumably they have developed magic to preserve it.

*skipped unrelated stuff*


So, because you want it to be complicated with deep philosophical/psyhological context it will be like that?
*shrugs*
Fans...



Yeah, right, FANSITE Kit. I already told you about story for russian manual in russian edition of the game. It is fun how often changes the plot in many interesting ways. I see no reason to believe in anything like FANSITE Kit (well, lol) or even manuals under such unstable conditions.
But ofc all fans do. Apriori.


And again, "if", "there was"...

EXACTLY. There is none. There is no clear preconditions for correct consclusions, only for suggestions.


Exactly. As I said - a part of a gameplay, but not the plot.
"... the last Dragon Knight saved his loyal servant Ssassan by extinguishing a three candles on her grave with his own hands, a candles that even a strong wind wasn't able to extinguish. He ressurected her body by giving her a ring..."
...
Yeah, right, infinite candles were burning withing few years awaiting dragon knight to resurrect a decayed body by simple ring. Indeed, it is not a part of a gameplay (puzzle), but a part of sane and logical plot. Withing few centuries ppl of Rivellon will be telling this story to their sons.
Amazing.

Ty, you delivered ;P


The point is simple: suggestions, suggestions, suggestions, suggestions, suggestions and suggestions. Only fans believe in their own words because it is what they want to believe. There is nothing wrong to live in your subjective world while you don't draw anyone else into that.

The objective pov is the fact that D2 has the worst plot ever since DD. Ofc, it is no match to other RPGs plot, like Dragon Age, but still, it cold be more sensible and logical just do not look so silly and unstable for any... no, not critic - just plain questions, like Stabbey asked.

Tbh, I have no idea how devs are planing to fix and sync all this mess in FoV.

Wait ... See ... Play Flames of Vengeance ... and make your conclusion !

So, because you want it to be complicated with deep philosophical/psyhological context it will be like that?

I'm not the one that was looking for meaning in the quest. I played through that section without giving it too much analysis. The ring triggers a resurrection - that was easy... must have been the final element to a ritual almost completed - and a second later I'm following Sassan to the battle tower.


Yeah, right, FANSITE Kit.

So rather than argue the facts you attack the source?
The Child of Chaos was printed/published and available with some versions of BD, or with the BD audio CD. I only mentioned the fansite kit since that it the only place to get it now.
The events described in this novella were also in BD (in less detail) and entirely consistent with that game as it was first released. Any changes to D2:ED's plotline are irrelevant to how old Ygerna was.


The point is simple: suggestions, suggestions, suggestions, suggestions, suggestions and suggestions. Only fans believe in their own words because it is what they want to believe.

Again, and I'm not sure how I could make this any clearer, I made suggestions about possible events not described directly within the game. That was not because I believed them (impossible, as I suggested more than one possibility) or was trying to convince anyone they were exactly what the Larians had in mind when they designed that quest.
My point was that the two different resurrection methods were not necessarily inconsistent.


There is nothing wrong to live in your subjective world while you don't draw anyone else into that.

Well, how could I refute such a reasoned and logical argument as that?

Really? You're the one who giving a detailed suggestion-"explanation" about that, but at the same time you say: "I played through that section without giving it too much analysis".
Fun.
Illogical statements is soo illogical.


No, did you miss my point? The point is: I can't trust any source that was somehow corrected AFTER the game was released.
"Hey guys, there is some errors I found in D2 plot/settings, let's fix it in new releases (USA/russian). Wait, the german version is out already... oh well, poor guys, but who cares".
If the devs itself can't be sure about their creation even AFTER the release I see no reason to be sure in it as well.
You know what fact is? A transcendental, solid-state thing you can operate with, to make some conslusions, result thoughts. You can't operate with facts that suddenly changes (it is not the fact then) like you can't hold water in your arms.
Simple logic.


Good, I see you don't deny the fact that you still accept a gameplay element (how you say? ah, "event". Event within a game plot, mmk) as the plot's/setting's one and even compare it to another which is -- no doubt -- a really plot-related "event", because it's the main quest and plot-line since the beginning of the game.
I see that such comprasion make no sense.
I wonder what fans see here...


You know what I find hilarious (it's related, yes)? The fact of existing such thread. No-no, you don't need to count a ppl opinions there, I already did it for you: the amount of ppl who likes DAO is much bigger, which I find hilarious, especially consider the fact it is a DIVINITY forums.
But that's not the point. The point is: count how many times ppl who like DAO uses word like plot, story. Then count the same words used by ppl who like D2 and compare.

Ofc I now the results. They... symbolizes.

"Just my opinion" yeah, lol.


Joram

You know why I like Piranha Bytes guys (and their games ofc)? Because if they made something bad or wrong in previous game they gonna fix/improve it in the next one coz feel ashamed of that. Like it was with Gothic 3 - a pure bugdrome. And look at Risen - almost no bugs, compare to their other games.

I hope Larian guys will do everything to fix a mess. In the end, Belgium not so far from German, it must be in their blood! :P

I played the game, did that quest, noticed it was a rather quick resurrection and kept playing.
Some time later there were two posts in the forum about this quest, the first asking for an official explanation of the difference, and the second stating it just made no sense.
I though, no that quest isn't necessarily illogical, as the situations were different, and posted to that effect.

Where exactly was the illogic in that?




How about a source printed 6 years ago, long before any changes in D2:ED releases?




I mentioned age as one of the differences between Ygerna and Sassan, to support the proposition that Sassan could have been ready and able to have a resurrection ritual prepared, which would only need a key component to complete.
You asked for proof of the age, I supplied it, you then ignored the age and said it didn't matter because there were changes made to D2:ED.




Everything in the game is a gameplay element.




I thought the discussion was about whether a particular quest in D2:ED makes sense within that game world? An opinion poll on which game has the better plot is irrelevant.

Nothing is impossible with the Force. Errr, magic.

guys im in need of help i really want to get in the action on the other side of the gate in aleroth you know the one you see right when you come into aleroth and yes ive already dobne the rifts closing thing. =]

You giving completely unrelated comment and trying to avoid my previous statement by supplying your words with an unrelated question and yet at the the same you perfectly understand what I meant.
I see you have a lot of troll experience, nice to know :p


SENSE.
LOGIC.
you make none.
I was talking ONLY about D2, it is YOU who were talking about BD and DD, which is.. kinda weird, since Ssassan question belongs to D2 only.
But it's ok, I understand, you wanted to make your point no matter what.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gameplay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_(narrative)
http://critical-gaming.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-write-critical-video-game-review.html

First, to state your opinion you're making simple things difficult, now, we can see a different picture: you're tying to simplify a difficult things.

It is fun how things turn out, isn't? :P


Nice try to avoid my point. I guess you clearly understand what I meant but do want to avoid it :P
I tried to show you objective pov about D2 plot: if my opinion can be just my opinion and nothing more, then set of opinions you can't ignore, otherwise you gonna admit you're blind and stubborn fanboi.
But -- as you say -- you're not, righty-righty? :P

ligthwarrior
http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=390872

wow this is still going on... all i can say is its just a game not much point in getting so heated about it, i like divinity but trying to understand how the divinity universe works is just plain stupid and impossible no game can possibly have an answer to your every question that pops out every so often,if there are empty spaces in the story maybe they are meant to be filled in by the player to immerse themselves better with the game and there still alot of things to be answered in the expansion so do the right thing and leave this topic alone

You giving completely unrelated comment and trying to avoid my previous statement by supplying your words with an unrelated question and yet at the the same you perfectly understand what I meant.

You called me illogical for giving a detailed suggestion as a possible explanation, and yet playing through that part of the game without giving it any analysis at the time. Unless I misunderstood why you were calling me illogical, my comments and question were entirely related.

So where exactly was I being illogical?
You quoted and underlined "without giving it too much analysis" so presumably it had something to do with that, as well as my "detailed suggestion"...

Where are the illogical statements?


I see you have a lot of troll experience, nice to know :p

I do, and I usually ignore them. They often make accusations to marginalize others rather than argue with facts or logic, and when they are proven wrong, they say it doesn't matter or try to avoid that aspect of the conversation.



SENSE.
LOGIC.
you make none.
I was talking ONLY about D2, it is YOU who were talking about BD and DD, which is.. kinda weird, since Ssassan question belongs to D2 only.

The topic is about why Ygerna's resurrection was so involved, while Sassan only required a couple candles and a ring.

If Ygerna's age when she was executed doesn't matter, why did you want proof that she was 'about 20'?
Or was it that when you thought I was guessing it was good enough to criticize, but backed up with fact you'd rather just avoid mentioning anything about it?



First, to state your opinion you're making simple things difficult,

While just assuming that the quest is illogical is simple, my suggestions were not in the least bit difficult. It is a fantasy setting filled with magic; I hardly have to get elaborate to suggest a reasonable explanation.

now, we can see a different picture: you're tying to simplify a difficult things.

What's the difficult thing?
My point was that everything in the game was still just part of the game, whether you want to dismiss it as an 'arcade gameplay thing' or consider it a valid part of an RPG. There are all kinds of plot or game devices that cross genres, and I don't see a problem with that as long as it fits in the gameworld and the game itself is fun.



Nice try to avoid my point. I guess you clearly understand what I meant but do want to avoid it :P

No, I clearly understood what you said, but I just do not see how it is relevant.

I concede that DAO is a far superior game, with a much better plot than D2:ED. Ok, now what does that mean for this particular quest?

You could argue (if you were interested in reasoned debate) that the lack of a book or few lines of dialog in D2:ED to just mention something about Sassan preparing a resurrection ritual means that Larian didn't put much thought into this particular quest (which may or may not be the case). The fact that more people think DAO has a better plot is irrelevant.

If you want to use DAO as an example of how game plots can be better, and argue that certain plot elements / devices should no longer be acceptable, then go ahead. That doesn't have any direct bearing on whether this particular quest makes sense in this gameworld, just on whether Larian should be called out for the lack of an explanation in-game.




Urath;
I don't think the discussion is heated; I'm not, anyway.

It is likely Larian didn't explain Sassan's resurrection very much since they thought it was obvious, and most people playing a fantasy RPG would at least assume something reasonable (especially if they played DD where a similar resurrection occurred).

The topic will die off on its own, though for now I'm still curious about what my illogical statement was suppose to be...

Urath

Agreed.

Who said "every question"? Definitely not me, you just did. Where is this came from?
Srsly, I used Dragon Age origins as the example of the good and polished RPG plot. It has almost no flaws, every question that pop-ups in the game has it's answer, there is no silly questions like with D2: "WTF is that", "WHY in the hell is that". There is a logic, sense in DAO plot. Ofc we don't get all answers, especially for the questions that pop-upы in the end of the game. That's why there is an addon, that's why there is a DAO2 coming in 2011.

Raze

Oh, now you know what I did and what I didn't? Fun, we have a telepat here.
Also, I see you did some analysis, which sounds fun coz of earlier your words: "I played through that section without giving it too much analysis."

Hypocrisy ftw.


That reminds me of some person who tried to do it few times >_> and still doing.


It is not related. I never said it is (show me where if I did).
And you know it, but why then you make it sounds like it is related and pop-up this question ever?
...
Why so childish?


I asked the proof for many things if you remember, Fun how you ignore everything else, but still bring up this one.
Yeah, let's avoid unsuitable things, right? ;P
Btw, you still didn't gave me a solid proof about her age:
From the Child of Chaos, page 24 (pdf included in the 17.7MB D2:ED fansite kit)
so at most Ygerna is about 20.
FANSITE kit, lol, yeah, reliable source consider the fact that story in new PDF-manuals now "fixed" a bit which makes a,ll older sources a bit... unreliable as the proof-source, lol.
Suggestions, suggestions... You even can't construct solid skeleton plot-line even using any kind of source which... symbolizes. You can make a house from playing cards but it will die from an easy windblow.


Ah, I've waited for that long time!
First, yes, magic. EXPLAINS everything, every stupid quest, every plot writer's mistake. "Oh, c'mon, forget about those holes, it's... M-A-G-I-C! No need to explain anything or make it sane and reasonable, fanbois will do this job for us, will make it look better than it is".
Now, the final question with my beloved example: Dragon Age. It has magic too. Why in the hell it IS reasonable and sane then? There is a logic behind almost every aspect/quest, devs used magic as background which makes the pattern on the picture prettier, but they never rely on it as the "ultimate explanation for everything". If there is a event or accident it has explanation why is that happened and, unlike other game, it does not left you empty with silly questions that make no sense, it gives answers, fills the emptiness.
D2 does not. It's plot is just a blur screen added to gameplay. Ofc, if the gameplay would be so great as devs think plot didn't matter, many games exist without real plot. But since the gameplay in D2 not so great, such situation shows all plot's errors and holes more brighter. Especially if you compare it with previous games in the series (DD, BD).


See, you agree. A part. You can decompile the whole things to parts: plot (mostly dialogs/books/main quests), gameplay (battle system, game exploration, etc), graphics, sound part.
All those criteria used by game magazines, they old as the word. We can rate separate parts and then the whole picture use previous info as basis.
But well, if you say it's all gameplay - ok then, can't argue here. Looks like we all were wrong lol.


Yes, but better only by objective criteria. If someone likes D2 plot more - ok, I see no problem with subjective pov, I have one too.

The Ssassan quest was taken as the example, one of many. Why are you trying to isolate the whole point of convo and reduce it to some quest comparing it with whole plot of diff game?
But yeah, I know, you want it to make everything I say look silly, which is fun, consider the fact how many time you say the convo must be reasonable and yet acting childish at the same time.
...
>_>
<_<


Lack of real work on the game's plot. The writer must be fired asap if he had no enough guts to tell the director that plot suck ass.


So, at first it had explanation, which you suggested earlier, and now it is obvious already? :o
I love it how often you change your opinion. Why it is so unstable? Are you unsure in your position already? ;P

Or you just STFU Kein. I've been lurking some time but just had to post something. Some things in the game make no sense (I agree), so what? We're talking about a world of magic and I resurrected Sassan by returning her ring, that's just oldschool fantasy RPG. Don't get all excited that you discovered 'tons' of things that don't make sense. It's a video game, developed by people who put hard work in it, and perhaps if the folks at Larian had some more time they could have polished mistakes like these by adding more background information.
In my opinion, your 'bitching' (excuse the language) on this game shows no respect to the people who've worked hard to complete it.

Oh, now you know what I did and what I didn't? Fun, we have a telepat here.

Funny how you didn't quote the part immediately after that, were I said that if I misunderstood you, I would like you to clarify what you said.

What was the illogical statement again?



Also, I see you did some analysis, which sounds fun coz of earlier your words: "I played through that section without giving it too much analysis."

Hypocrisy ftw.

It is neither hypocritical or illogical to not analyze something, and then at some later point in time to analyze it. In fact, everything that anyone has ever analyzed was not analyzed at an earlier point in time.



Yeah, let's avoid unsuitable things, right? ;P
Btw, you still didn't gave me a solid proof about her age:

Yet again you say the fansite kit is unreliable, completely ignoring the fact that the novella was printed 6 years ago.



So, at first it had explanation, which you suggested earlier, and now it is obvious already? :o

An explanation can be obvious, and in many cases it is.

I love it how often you change your opinion. Why it is so unstable? Are you unsure in your position already? ;P

I have not changed my opinion at all, let alone often.



I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, since English is not your native language, but fail to see how continuing this would be useful...

unless of course you would like to point out my illogical statement, as I asked earlier.