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OK, here's what I have gathered.

A long time ago, Sassan was the girlfriend of the evil Laiken. Laiken gave her a ring, I guess. To enter the Battle Tower, Laiken killed Sassan and used her blood to enter. He then took her ring and put it in his study, and bound her spirit to her grave, then pit a wind curse over it because she hates wind or something.

The Dragon Knight comes along, and dispels the wind curse. Sassan, who is dead and incorporeal, her spirit tells the Dragon Knight to bring her back her ring so she can come back to life.

The Dragon Knight brings Sassan her ring back, and she comes back to life. Not as a zombie, but as a living, breathing person... How exactly does that work? She was dead, but after bringing her ring back, she returns to life, no questions asked. Can someone (Larian) please explain that? Thanks.

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Ah, I thought no one will notice that, but suddenly: a sane person appears :P

Congratulations, Stabbey you've found one of many logical flaws in D2 plot (there is a tons of such). We did such hard work to revive and rescue Ygerna from HoE: followed Maxos footsteps, killed Bhaal, found Sigil and Shied, destroyed tons of Stone Fortresses, acquired Dragon Power... but what we did to revive Ssassan? Right, we bring back to her spirit a ring. Just plain simple ring...

SENSE.
LOGIC.
There is none,. Not even a little.

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So regardless of the person, their talents or manner of death, exactly the same methods should work to resurrect them?

Ygerna's father was a necromancer, but her part in his research involved kidnapping children. She was at least moderately strong as a witch, but still only about 20 when she was beheaded (and then soul-forged to Damian, in a variation of that spell he had to come up with on the spot).

Sassan was older, and Laiken was doing much more advanced research. Whether she became suspicious of Laiken or not, she had all kinds of time to prepare for her own resurrection. Laiken may have even helped her with that, assuming it was done before he found out he needed her blood.
The ritual Laiken did to unseal the battle tower may have resulted in Sassan remaining as a ghost, or that may have been the usual anger / unresolved business method of ghost production. The candle trigger and windy grave may have been Laiken's method to keep her ghost away, but still available if he wanted to gloat or needed information, or something. Alternately, it could be a test Sassan set up, since there was no point standing around at her grave if there was no one around strong enough to help her get revenge on Laiken. Rather than being a 'plain simple ring', it was the key to complete the resurrection.

There was yet another method of resurrection in Divine Divinity (aside from the blessing ritual), where a necromancer made preparations, and then required some time to pass before skeleton servants would pull 4 levers, in order, to activate the mechanism that would bring him back. Though that method didn't quite work as planned, he did return alive rather than as a zombie / skeleton.

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Originally Posted by Raze

So regardless of the person, their talents or manner of death, exactly the same methods should work to resurrect them?

Ygerna's father was a necromancer, but her part in his research involved kidnapping children. She was at least moderately strong as a witch, but still only about 20 when she was beheaded (and then soul-forged to Damian, in a variation of that spell he had to come up with on the spot).


Don't get started on Y'Gerna, either. That was also strange. Her head was cut off but her body didn't decay.

And apparently the Black Ring fetched head and body and re-attached the head.



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Sassan was older, and Laiken was doing much more advanced research. Whether she became suspicious of Laiken or not, she had all kinds of time to prepare for her own resurrection. Laiken may have even helped her with that, assuming it was done before he found out he needed her blood.
The ritual Laiken did to unseal the battle tower may have resulted in Sassan remaining as a ghost, or that may have been the usual anger / unresolved business method of ghost production. The candle trigger and windy grave may have been Laiken's method to keep her ghost away, but still available if he wanted to gloat or needed information, or something. Alternately, it could be a test Sassan set up, since there was no point standing around at her grave if there was no one around strong enough to help her get revenge on Laiken. Rather than being a 'plain simple ring', it was the key to complete the resurrection.


That's fine and all. The problem is that the game doesn't even begin to explain any of that, hence the confusion.

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There was yet another method of resurrection in Divine Divinity (aside from the blessing ritual), where a necromancer made preparations, and then required some time to pass before skeleton servants would pull 4 levers, in order, to activate the mechanism that would bring him back. Though that method didn't quite work as planned, he did return alive rather than as a zombie / skeleton.


He came back as a Mummy-type enemy. I'm not sure that he came back "alive", not completely anyway, as he immediately realized he was suffering "mortal pain" and asked to be killed.

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Raze

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So regardless of the person, their talents or manner of death, exactly the same methods should work to resurrect them?

Just to prove or support something people/fanbois (no offence) always trying to make things difficult or look difficult, like, to show that everything is not so easy and simple as someone says.

Occama's Razor

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Ygerna's [...] only about 20

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Sassan was older

Factological proof please, from game's plot.

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she had all kinds of time to prepare for her own resurrection.

Factological proof please, from game's plot.

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The ritual Laiken did to unseal the battle tower may have resulted in Sassan remaining as a ghost

Factological proof please, from game's plot.

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The candle trigger and windy grave may have been Laiken's method to keep her ghost away

An arcade gameplay thing for fun (so-called "puzzle element") now is a part of a plot and setting?
That's why I love fanbois - they always delivers :P (no offence)

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Alternately, it could be a test Sassan set up, since there was no point standing around at her grave if there was no one around strong enough to help her get revenge on Laiken. Rather than being a 'plain simple ring', it was the key to complete the resurrection.

"Alternately", "could be", "was", "rather then"...

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There was yet another method of resurrection in Divine Divinity (aside from the blessing ritual), where a necromancer made preparations, and then required some time to pass before skeleton servants would pull 4 levers, in order, to activate the mechanism that would bring him back. Though that method didn't quite work as planned, he did return alive rather than as a zombie / skeleton.

yeah, right, so many methods, and yet no logical system about magic system in Divinity Universe. Not even mention the fact that D2 almost cut off every connections with previous games in setting/plot (except the main line).


Everything you say is just a suggestions, there is no way to prove it. And not because we don't know everything yet, but because the plot and setting in D2 is so poor and unpolished so there is just nothing to talk about. Many aspects "unsynced" and differs so much it's even confuses and left only one question: "HOW SO?" "WHY IS THAT SO?".

Stabbey
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And apparently the Black Ring fetched head and body and re-attached the head.

Yeah, right.
You know, the main plot line of D2 was unclear 'till the end. For example, russian translation team got completely different manual with different story (it was beta). Consider the fact that they started to work @ translation in q3 of 2009... it symbolises.

-------

I'm not trying to say all these mistakes make the game "bad", I'm just trying to say "Don' take it's plot and setting too serious". It is like... a Batman's one. Low-level fiction scenario for a day-fun.

Game is still awesome, consider the fact there is not so much RPGs nowadays

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Hello!

Adding more fuel to the fire-- what confused me was her "neutral" attitude toward you for trading! Whaaa? You do even less for others and they lower their prices! You reunite Sassan's spirit with her "beautiful" body... and she's neutral? Maybe she feels all that was compensated for by her 'assistance' in the battle tower?

Ah well. It's only a game after all. A fun one to play.

~~CierraShore


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So... because you don't think something makes sense, Occam's Razor proves there can be no explanation?
You can certainly argue that this quest was slapped together without any thought, but being the simplest explanation does not necessarily make it the correct one.

It doesn't take a fanboi to be able to think of possible explanations for things not mentioned specifically in the game.

From the Child of Chaos, page 24 (pdf included in the 17.7MB D2:ED fansite kit), "...Ygerna was a remarkable alluring girl although, he noted, several years older than Damian". Damian was 15 (joined the paladins on his 13th birthday, bottom of page 12, and trained for 2 years, page 23), so at most Ygerna is about 20.
Sassan's dialog, history and personality all give the impression, at least to me, that she is not just a teenager (feel free to show proof that this is wrong, though).
The ages are only relevant as far as experience with resurrection goes.

If Sassan suspected Laiken, or was otherwise concerned about coming back from the dead, then she had time to prepare. If there was 'factological proof' about that in the game then Stabbey wouldn't have posted in the first place. No RPG game explains everything or has the complete history of everything and everyone.

Candles were used to trigger a summoning in Divine Divinity, as well as hidden doorways / passages in DD and BD. It hardly takes a fanboi to propose something similar here.


"Alternately", "could be", "was", "rather then"...

Yes, and what is your point? Can I not suggest logical theories that could fill in the missing information? Nobody jumped into topics about Needleman's history or the plotline of the add-on to demand proof rather than conjecture.
In any case, I'm not trying to prove anything in particular happened, just that it is possible to have an elaborate and simple resurrection in different situations in the same gameworld.

The ring being the key to complete the resurrection was not conjecture, though, since getting the ring did in fact complete the resurrection.


Um... did you play DD or BD? There are new areas in D2:ED, but the plot continued. Was nothing suppose to change or get added in subsequent games?


There were grave robbers in DD. It is hardly a stretch to think the Black Ring might dig up a grave, or that Damian would order it. Food, etc, is delivered all over Rivellon in crates, so presumably they have developed magic to preserve it.

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*skipped unrelated stuff*

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So... because you don't think something makes sense, Occam's Razor proves there can be no explanation?

So, because you want it to be complicated with deep philosophical/psyhological context it will be like that?
*shrugs*
Fans...

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From the Child of Chaos, page 24 (pdf included in the 17.7MB D2:ED fansite kit), "...Ygerna was a remarkable alluring girl although, he noted, several years older than Damian". Damian was 15 (joined the paladins on his 13th birthday, bottom of page 12, and trained for 2 years, page 23), so at most Ygerna is about 20.


Yeah, right, FANSITE Kit. I already told you about story for russian manual in russian edition of the game. It is fun how often changes the plot in many interesting ways. I see no reason to believe in anything like FANSITE Kit (well, lol) or even manuals under such unstable conditions.
But ofc all fans do. Apriori.

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If Sassan suspected Laiken, or was otherwise concerned about coming back from the dead, then she had time to prepare.

And again, "if", "there was"...
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If there was 'factological proof'

EXACTLY. There is none. There is no clear preconditions for correct consclusions, only for suggestions.

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Candles were used to trigger a summoning in Divine Divinity, as well as hidden doorways / passages in DD and BD.

Exactly. As I said - a part of a gameplay, but not the plot.
"... the last Dragon Knight saved his loyal servant Ssassan by extinguishing a three candles on her grave with his own hands, a candles that even a strong wind wasn't able to extinguish. He ressurected her body by giving her a ring..."
...
Yeah, right, infinite candles were burning withing few years awaiting dragon knight to resurrect a decayed body by simple ring. Indeed, it is not a part of a gameplay (puzzle), but a part of sane and logical plot. Withing few centuries ppl of Rivellon will be telling this story to their sons.
Amazing.

Ty, you delivered ;P

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Yes, and what is your point?

The point is simple: suggestions, suggestions, suggestions, suggestions, suggestions and suggestions. Only fans believe in their own words because it is what they want to believe. There is nothing wrong to live in your subjective world while you don't draw anyone else into that.

The objective pov is the fact that D2 has the worst plot ever since DD. Ofc, it is no match to other RPGs plot, like Dragon Age, but still, it cold be more sensible and logical just do not look so silly and unstable for any... no, not critic - just plain questions, like Stabbey asked.

Tbh, I have no idea how devs are planing to fix and sync all this mess in FoV.

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Originally Posted by Kein

Tbh, I have no idea how devs are planing to fix and sync all this mess in FoV.


Wait think... See groovy ... Play Flames of Vengeance ... rpg001 and make your conclusion ! biggrin

evil



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it's a Fantastic Freaking Fabulous Funny ... it's my All Time Favorite One !
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So, because you want it to be complicated with deep philosophical/psyhological context it will be like that?

I'm not the one that was looking for meaning in the quest. I played through that section without giving it too much analysis. The ring triggers a resurrection - that was easy... must have been the final element to a ritual almost completed - and a second later I'm following Sassan to the battle tower.


Yeah, right, FANSITE Kit.

So rather than argue the facts you attack the source?
The Child of Chaos was printed/published and available with some versions of BD, or with the BD audio CD. I only mentioned the fansite kit since that it the only place to get it now.
The events described in this novella were also in BD (in less detail) and entirely consistent with that game as it was first released. Any changes to D2:ED's plotline are irrelevant to how old Ygerna was.


The point is simple: suggestions, suggestions, suggestions, suggestions, suggestions and suggestions. Only fans believe in their own words because it is what they want to believe.

Again, and I'm not sure how I could make this any clearer, I made suggestions about possible events not described directly within the game. That was not because I believed them (impossible, as I suggested more than one possibility) or was trying to convince anyone they were exactly what the Larians had in mind when they designed that quest.
My point was that the two different resurrection methods were not necessarily inconsistent.


There is nothing wrong to live in your subjective world while you don't draw anyone else into that.

Well, how could I refute such a reasoned and logical argument as that?

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I'm not the one that was looking for meaning in the quest.

Really? You're the one who giving a detailed suggestion-"explanation" about that, but at the same time you say: "I played through that section without giving it too much analysis".
Fun.
Illogical statements is soo illogical.

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So rather than argue the facts you attack the source?

No, did you miss my point? The point is: I can't trust any source that was somehow corrected AFTER the game was released.
"Hey guys, there is some errors I found in D2 plot/settings, let's fix it in new releases (USA/russian). Wait, the german version is out already... oh well, poor guys, but who cares".
If the devs itself can't be sure about their creation even AFTER the release I see no reason to be sure in it as well.
You know what fact is? A transcendental, solid-state thing you can operate with, to make some conslusions, result thoughts. You can't operate with facts that suddenly changes (it is not the fact then) like you can't hold water in your arms.
Simple logic.

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Any changes to D2:ED's plotline are irrelevant to how old Ygerna was.[/quoite]
Fun, but I didn't make any connections between such aspects, it was you did it right now.
>_>
<_<

[quote]My point was that the two different resurrection methods were not necessarily inconsistent.

Good, I see you don't deny the fact that you still accept a gameplay element (how you say? ah, "event". Event within a game plot, mmk) as the plot's/setting's one and even compare it to another which is -- no doubt -- a really plot-related "event", because it's the main quest and plot-line since the beginning of the game.
I see that such comprasion make no sense.
I wonder what fans see here...

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Well, how could I refute such a reasoned and logical argument as that?

You know what I find hilarious (it's related, yes)? The fact of existing such thread. No-no, you don't need to count a ppl opinions there, I already did it for you: the amount of ppl who likes DAO is much bigger, which I find hilarious, especially consider the fact it is a DIVINITY forums.
But that's not the point. The point is: count how many times ppl who like DAO uses word like plot, story. Then count the same words used by ppl who like D2 and compare.

Ofc I now the results. They... symbolizes.

"Just my opinion" yeah, lol.


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Wait ... See ... Play Flames of Vengeance ... and make your conclusion !

You know why I like Piranha Bytes guys (and their games ofc)? Because if they made something bad or wrong in previous game they gonna fix/improve it in the next one coz feel ashamed of that. Like it was with Gothic 3 - a pure bugdrome. And look at Risen - almost no bugs, compare to their other games.

I hope Larian guys will do everything to fix a mess. In the end, Belgium not so far from German, it must be in their blood! :P

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Originally Posted by Kein
Really? You're the one who giving a detailed suggestion-"explanation" about that, but at the same time you say: "I played through that section without giving it too much analysis".
Fun.
Illogical statements is soo illogical.

I played the game, did that quest, noticed it was a rather quick resurrection and kept playing.
Some time later there were two posts in the forum about this quest, the first asking for an official explanation of the difference, and the second stating it just made no sense.
I though, no that quest isn't necessarily illogical, as the situations were different, and posted to that effect.

Where exactly was the illogic in that?



Originally Posted by Kein
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So rather than argue the facts you attack the source?

No, did you miss my point? The point is: I can't trust any source that was somehow corrected AFTER the game was released.

How about a source printed 6 years ago, long before any changes in D2:ED releases?



Originally Posted by Kein
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Any changes to D2:ED's plotline are irrelevant to how old Ygerna was.

Fun, but I didn't make any connections between such aspects, it was you did it right now.

I mentioned age as one of the differences between Ygerna and Sassan, to support the proposition that Sassan could have been ready and able to have a resurrection ritual prepared, which would only need a key component to complete.
You asked for proof of the age, I supplied it, you then ignored the age and said it didn't matter because there were changes made to D2:ED.



Originally Posted by Kein
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My point was that the two different resurrection methods were not necessarily inconsistent.

Good, I see you don't deny the fact that you still accept a gameplay element

Everything in the game is a gameplay element.



Originally Posted by Kein
the amount of ppl who likes DAO is much bigger, which I find hilarious, especially consider the fact it is a DIVINITY forums.

I thought the discussion was about whether a particular quest in D2:ED makes sense within that game world? An opinion poll on which game has the better plot is irrelevant.

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Nothing is impossible with the Force. Errr, magic.

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guys im in need of help i really want to get in the action on the other side of the gate in aleroth you know the one you see right when you come into aleroth and yes ive already dobne the rifts closing thing. =]

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Where exactly was the illogic in that?

You giving completely unrelated comment and trying to avoid my previous statement by supplying your words with an unrelated question and yet at the the same you perfectly understand what I meant.
I see you have a lot of troll experience, nice to know :p

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How about a source printed 6 years ago, long before any changes in D2:ED releases?

SENSE.
LOGIC.
you make none.
I was talking ONLY about D2, it is YOU who were talking about BD and DD, which is.. kinda weird, since Ssassan question belongs to D2 only.
But it's ok, I understand, you wanted to make your point no matter what.

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Everything in the game is a gameplay element.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gameplay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_(narrative)
http://critical-gaming.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-write-critical-video-game-review.html

First, to state your opinion you're making simple things difficult, now, we can see a different picture: you're tying to simplify a difficult things.

It is fun how things turn out, isn't? :P

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I thought the discussion was about whether a particular quest in D2:ED makes sense within that game world? An opinion poll on which game has the better plot is irrelevant.

Nice try to avoid my point. I guess you clearly understand what I meant but do want to avoid it :P
I tried to show you objective pov about D2 plot: if my opinion can be just my opinion and nothing more, then set of opinions you can't ignore, otherwise you gonna admit you're blind and stubborn fanboi.
But -- as you say -- you're not, righty-righty? :P

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wow this is still going on... all i can say is its just a game not much point in getting so heated about it, i like divinity but trying to understand how the divinity universe works is just plain stupid and impossible no game can possibly have an answer to your every question that pops out every so often,if there are empty spaces in the story maybe they are meant to be filled in by the player to immerse themselves better with the game and there still alot of things to be answered in the expansion so do the right thing and leave this topic alone

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You giving completely unrelated comment and trying to avoid my previous statement by supplying your words with an unrelated question and yet at the the same you perfectly understand what I meant.

You called me illogical for giving a detailed suggestion as a possible explanation, and yet playing through that part of the game without giving it any analysis at the time. Unless I misunderstood why you were calling me illogical, my comments and question were entirely related.

So where exactly was I being illogical?
You quoted and underlined "without giving it too much analysis" so presumably it had something to do with that, as well as my "detailed suggestion"...

Where are the illogical statements?


I see you have a lot of troll experience, nice to know :p

I do, and I usually ignore them. They often make accusations to marginalize others rather than argue with facts or logic, and when they are proven wrong, they say it doesn't matter or try to avoid that aspect of the conversation.



SENSE.
LOGIC.
you make none.
I was talking ONLY about D2, it is YOU who were talking about BD and DD, which is.. kinda weird, since Ssassan question belongs to D2 only.


The topic is about why Ygerna's resurrection was so involved, while Sassan only required a couple candles and a ring.

If Ygerna's age when she was executed doesn't matter, why did you want proof that she was 'about 20'?
Or was it that when you thought I was guessing it was good enough to criticize, but backed up with fact you'd rather just avoid mentioning anything about it?



First, to state your opinion you're making simple things difficult,

While just assuming that the quest is illogical is simple, my suggestions were not in the least bit difficult. It is a fantasy setting filled with magic; I hardly have to get elaborate to suggest a reasonable explanation.

now, we can see a different picture: you're tying to simplify a difficult things.

What's the difficult thing?
My point was that everything in the game was still just part of the game, whether you want to dismiss it as an 'arcade gameplay thing' or consider it a valid part of an RPG. There are all kinds of plot or game devices that cross genres, and I don't see a problem with that as long as it fits in the gameworld and the game itself is fun.



Nice try to avoid my point. I guess you clearly understand what I meant but do want to avoid it :P

No, I clearly understood what you said, but I just do not see how it is relevant.

I concede that DAO is a far superior game, with a much better plot than D2:ED. Ok, now what does that mean for this particular quest?

You could argue (if you were interested in reasoned debate) that the lack of a book or few lines of dialog in D2:ED to just mention something about Sassan preparing a resurrection ritual means that Larian didn't put much thought into this particular quest (which may or may not be the case). The fact that more people think DAO has a better plot is irrelevant.

If you want to use DAO as an example of how game plots can be better, and argue that certain plot elements / devices should no longer be acceptable, then go ahead. That doesn't have any direct bearing on whether this particular quest makes sense in this gameworld, just on whether Larian should be called out for the lack of an explanation in-game.




Urath;
I don't think the discussion is heated; I'm not, anyway.

It is likely Larian didn't explain Sassan's resurrection very much since they thought it was obvious, and most people playing a fantasy RPG would at least assume something reasonable (especially if they played DD where a similar resurrection occurred).

The topic will die off on its own, though for now I'm still curious about what my illogical statement was suppose to be...

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Originally Posted by Urath
wow this is still going on... all i can say is its just a game not much point in getting so heated about it, i like divinity but trying to understand how the divinity universe works is just plain stupid and impossible

Agreed.
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no game can possibly have an answer to your every question that pops out every so often

Who said "every question"? Definitely not me, you just did. Where is this came from?
Srsly, I used Dragon Age origins as the example of the good and polished RPG plot. It has almost no flaws, every question that pop-ups in the game has it's answer, there is no silly questions like with D2: "WTF is that", "WHY in the hell is that". There is a logic, sense in DAO plot. Ofc we don't get all answers, especially for the questions that pop-upы in the end of the game. That's why there is an addon, that's why there is a DAO2 coming in 2011.

Raze
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You called me illogical for giving a detailed suggestion as a possible explanation, and yet playing through that part of the game without giving it any analysis at the time.

Oh, now you know what I did and what I didn't? Fun, we have a telepat here.
Also, I see you did some analysis, which sounds fun coz of earlier your words: "I played through that section without giving it too much analysis."

Hypocrisy ftw.

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and when they are proven wrong, they say it doesn't matter or try to avoid that aspect of the conversation.

That reminds me of some person who tried to do it few times >_> and still doing.

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If Ygerna's age when she was executed doesn't matter, why did you want proof that she was 'about 20'?

It is not related. I never said it is (show me where if I did).
And you know it, but why then you make it sounds like it is related and pop-up this question ever?
...
Why so childish?

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Or was it that when you thought I was guessing it was good enough to criticize, but backed up with fact you'd rather just avoid mentioning anything about it?

I asked the proof for many things if you remember, Fun how you ignore everything else, but still bring up this one.
Yeah, let's avoid unsuitable things, right? ;P
Btw, you still didn't gave me a solid proof about her age:
From the Child of Chaos, page 24 (pdf included in the 17.7MB D2:ED fansite kit)
so at most Ygerna is about 20.
FANSITE kit, lol, yeah, reliable source consider the fact that story in new PDF-manuals now "fixed" a bit which makes a,ll older sources a bit... unreliable as the proof-source, lol.
Suggestions, suggestions... You even can't construct solid skeleton plot-line even using any kind of source which... symbolizes. You can make a house from playing cards but it will die from an easy windblow.

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It is a fantasy setting filled with magic; I hardly have to get elaborate to suggest a reasonable explanation.

Ah, I've waited for that long time!
First, yes, magic. EXPLAINS everything, every stupid quest, every plot writer's mistake. "Oh, c'mon, forget about those holes, it's... M-A-G-I-C! No need to explain anything or make it sane and reasonable, fanbois will do this job for us, will make it look better than it is".
Now, the final question with my beloved example: Dragon Age. It has magic too. Why in the hell it IS reasonable and sane then? There is a logic behind almost every aspect/quest, devs used magic as background which makes the pattern on the picture prettier, but they never rely on it as the "ultimate explanation for everything". If there is a event or accident it has explanation why is that happened and, unlike other game, it does not left you empty with silly questions that make no sense, it gives answers, fills the emptiness.
D2 does not. It's plot is just a blur screen added to gameplay. Ofc, if the gameplay would be so great as devs think plot didn't matter, many games exist without real plot. But since the gameplay in D2 not so great, such situation shows all plot's errors and holes more brighter. Especially if you compare it with previous games in the series (DD, BD).

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My point was that everything in the game was still just part of the game

See, you agree. A part. You can decompile the whole things to parts: plot (mostly dialogs/books/main quests), gameplay (battle system, game exploration, etc), graphics, sound part.
All those criteria used by game magazines, they old as the word. We can rate separate parts and then the whole picture use previous info as basis.
But well, if you say it's all gameplay - ok then, can't argue here. Looks like we all were wrong lol.

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I concede that DAO is a far superior game, with a much better plot than D2:ED.

Yes, but better only by objective criteria. If someone likes D2 plot more - ok, I see no problem with subjective pov, I have one too.
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Ok, now what does that mean for this particular quest?

The Ssassan quest was taken as the example, one of many. Why are you trying to isolate the whole point of convo and reduce it to some quest comparing it with whole plot of diff game?
But yeah, I know, you want it to make everything I say look silly, which is fun, consider the fact how many time you say the convo must be reasonable and yet acting childish at the same time.
...
>_>
<_<

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Larian should be called out for the lack of an explanation in-game.

Lack of real work on the game's plot. The writer must be fired asap if he had no enough guts to tell the director that plot suck ass.

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It is likely Larian didn't explain Sassan's resurrection very much since they thought it was obvious

So, at first it had explanation, which you suggested earlier, and now it is obvious already? :o
I love it how often you change your opinion. Why it is so unstable? Are you unsure in your position already? ;P

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Or you just STFU Kein. I've been lurking some time but just had to post something. Some things in the game make no sense (I agree), so what? We're talking about a world of magic and I resurrected Sassan by returning her ring, that's just oldschool fantasy RPG. Don't get all excited that you discovered 'tons' of things that don't make sense. It's a video game, developed by people who put hard work in it, and perhaps if the folks at Larian had some more time they could have polished mistakes like these by adding more background information.
In my opinion, your 'bitching' (excuse the language) on this game shows no respect to the people who've worked hard to complete it.


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Oh, now you know what I did and what I didn't? Fun, we have a telepat here.

Funny how you didn't quote the part immediately after that, were I said that if I misunderstood you, I would like you to clarify what you said.

What was the illogical statement again?



Also, I see you did some analysis, which sounds fun coz of earlier your words: "I played through that section without giving it too much analysis."

Hypocrisy ftw.


It is neither hypocritical or illogical to not analyze something, and then at some later point in time to analyze it. In fact, everything that anyone has ever analyzed was not analyzed at an earlier point in time.



Yeah, let's avoid unsuitable things, right? ;P
Btw, you still didn't gave me a solid proof about her age:


Yet again you say the fansite kit is unreliable, completely ignoring the fact that the novella was printed 6 years ago.



So, at first it had explanation, which you suggested earlier, and now it is obvious already? :o

An explanation can be obvious, and in many cases it is.

I love it how often you change your opinion. Why it is so unstable? Are you unsure in your position already? ;P

I have not changed my opinion at all, let alone often.



I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, since English is not your native language, but fail to see how continuing this would be useful...

unless of course you would like to point out my illogical statement, as I asked earlier.

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Funny how you didn't quote the part immediately after that, were I said that if I misunderstood you, I would like you to clarify what you said.
It is neither hypocritical or illogical to not analyze something, and then at some later point in time to analyze it. In fact, everything that anyone has ever analyzed was not analyzed at an earlier point in time.

First, you're typing 20k bytes of your suggestions about meaning of this quest, but then, SUDDENLY, you say "I played through that section without giving it too much analysis. which is lie now.

And you say you aren't hypocrite after that?
...

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Yet again you say the fansite kit is unreliable, completely ignoring the fact that the novella was printed 6 years ago.

And you're completely ignoring the fact that D2 is out in 2009 and a lot of things changed since then, and even it's story in manual was changed AFTER the release. This makes older sources completely unreliable under such conditions.
Oh, but may be you want to talk how much connections has Story.pdf from DD and D2? yeah, let's talk about Orcs, dwarfes (which wasn't even mentioned in D2, but but.. the source is 6 yo!), about SUDDEN appearance of some dragon knights in their current image, about Maxos and other Dragon lords, about a part of the Rivellon that nevar heard about Lord of Chaos and about broken timeline between games?
It would be hilarious if we take your few years old source as the most reliable and start dancing from it. I can see the end of it, yeah.

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An explanation can be obvious, and in many cases it is.

So, those suggestions you have posted means.. nothing and not needed? Why did you do it then if the explanation was obvious?

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unless of course you would like to point out my illogical statement, as I asked earlier.

Already did it few times, see first reply in this post. You even don't watch for your words :P

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I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, since English is not your native language

Ah, and almighty english remark that settles everything an shows who is right here, yeah. Why it took you so long? ;P I thought you will give it in a 2nd or 3rd post.
Sorry, but I must remind you that you can use this only once, because if you continue this convo you accept the conditions of yours interlocutor's "englesh" :P

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Kein. Please, just SHUT UP. No one cares except you.

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I really don't understand the problem....
Is it normal that your creature is peeing all the time? Because I never see him drinking...
Same for you character, he/she is never eating or sleeping... is that possible/normal?
And if your creature dies, you can bring him back to live, without going to the Hall of Echoes. You only need the skull.

Perhaps Sassan is such a creature? And she needs the ring instead of a skull?

And why is a logical solution needed... it's a fantasy game, everything is possible smile

Last edited by -Elena-; 15/05/10 02:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by -Elena-
I really don't understand the problem....
Is it normal that your creature is peeing all the time? Because I never see him drinking...
Same for you character, he/she is never eating or sleeping... is that possible/normal?
And if your creature dies, you can bring him back to live, without going to the Hall of Echoes. You only need the skull.

Perhaps Sassan is such a creature? And she needs the ring instead of a skull?

And why is a logical solution needed... it's a fantasy game, everything is possible smile


Please understand this:

I am NOT -demanding- precise scientific, peer-reviewed research for every aspect of the game.

But it would be nice if, you know, the game made even the -slightest- effort at explaining major plot points. Especially if said plot points seem to contradict other plot points which are driving the entire plot of the game. A fantasy game doesn't mean you -must- turn off your brain, and abandon all logic.

I think that it's a good thing when the "rules" of a universe are clearly established.

That stuff Raze said may or may not be correct. My complaint is that the game never even bothers offering a minimal explanation about why the ring restores long-dead Sassan to a fully-alive person.

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Well, let us hope that we'll get an answer on this question in the add-on.

Larian already said that "Soon they’ll recognize that many of the characters they met in the main game aren’t who they pretended to be."

Maybe Sassan is one of them. Maybe she is evil and is going to destroy your battletower. Maybe that explains why she has a 'neutral' opinion in the trading screen. smile

"...and the answers to many questions in the Divinity universe revealed."




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Originally Posted by -Elena-
I really don't understand the problem....
Is it normal that your creature is peeing all the time? Because I never see him drinking...
Same for you character, he/she is never eating or sleeping... is that possible/normal?
And if your creature dies, you can bring him back to live, without going to the Hall of Echoes. You only need the skull.

Perhaps Sassan is such a creature? And she needs the ring instead of a skull?


Haha, I take it your being sarcastic! laugh I also want an explanation for the fact there's no day-night time in ED. That's not normal!!!!! oops

Last edited by Willlem; 15/05/10 03:52 PM.

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First, you're typing 20k bytes of your suggestions about meaning of this quest, but then, SUDDENLY, you say "I played through that section without giving it too much analysis. which is lie now.

Yesterday I drove to the store.
When I was 12 I never drove a car.

Is the second statement a lie now?

When I played the game I never gave much thought to this quest (early February).
After this topic was started, I did think about this quest (May 8th/9th), and posted a couple hypothesis to explain the difference in resurrection methods.


And you say you aren't hypocrite after that?

Yes. So would everyone else.



And you're completely ignoring the fact that D2 is out in 2009 and a lot of things changed since then, and even it's story in manual was changed AFTER the release. This makes older sources completely unreliable under such conditions.

Things do get added and changed in sequels, but that is generally for a reason. Why would Ygerna's age be suddenly changed? The story makes sense as it is, and there is nothing to be gained by altering that portion of the history.

Larian can, and should, expand on the gameworld and change existing areas in logical ways given the jump in time between games. If they need to re-write history a bit for certain additions to make sense, I'm ok with that. They may not have had dragon knights in mind before doing DD, but with a 3D game engine, flying can be added to give an additional element to the game. The previous history has not been changed, other than dragon knights being conspicuously absent from the area of Rivellon shown in DD.


Oh, but may be you want to talk how much connections has Story.pdf from DD and D2? yeah, let's talk about Orcs, dwarfes (which wasn't even mentioned in D2, but but.. the source is 6 yo!)

If the same character was in the story.pdf and D2:ED, then it would certainly be a valid source of information, presumably reliable unless there were differences in the game. If there are no actual discrepancies, though, there is no reason to assume the older source is unreliable.

The absence of orcs and dwarves in that area of Rivellon was not explained explicitly in the game, and there was just a book to suggest the elves went underground to hide and eventually died off. That doesn't mean they will not reappear in a subsequent game, though, either as NPCs or the remains of their civilizations.



So, those suggestions you have posted means.. nothing and not needed? Why did you do it then if the explanation was obvious?

I said in many cases an explanation can be obvious. There were at least 2 people who didn't think this particular one was.



Ah, and almighty english remark that settles everything an shows who is right here, yeah. Why it took you so long? ;P I thought you will give it in a 2nd or 3rd post.

Have I, at any point in this discussion, used personal attacks?
Why can you call me fanboi, hypocrite, liar, troll and childish, yet I mention English isn't your native language and that is what settles the argument and shows who is right?

Is it unreasonable to think there may be misunderstandings due to language differences?
Your English is very good, but I've had a conversation with a German person who's English was also very good, and used a common, harmless phrase in English that had a very, very different connotation in German. Just those 3 words put a whole different spin on the entire message, which took another couple messages to clarify exactly what was originally meant.

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When I played the game I never gave much thought to this quest (early February).
After this topic was started, I did think about this quest (May 8th/9th), and posted a couple hypothesis

Makes sense now.

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Things do get added and changed in sequels, but that is generally for a reason.

Yes, of course. But since it is the SEQUEL, a continue of the game in the same universe it must respect it's own basis and conditions. If it is not, then how it's can be a sequel or how we even can talk about the sane and serious plot if the creators itself ignore it?
>_>

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Why would Ygerna's age be suddenly changed? The story makes sense as it is, and there is nothing to be gained by altering that portion of the history.

Why are you still talking about Ygerna's age? I mean: you and only you mentioned it, and now you put this in almost in every sentence of yours. I don't understand, why are you keep mentioned it? Such persistence worth applauses, but make no sense to me: why?


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Larian can, and should, expand on the gameworld and change existing areas in logical ways given the jump in time between games.

Logical way, I agree.
But there is none.

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If they need to re-write history a bit for certain additions to make sense, I'm ok with that.

I'm ok too while it is done with the sane conditions. I mean: why re-make and destroy the old good DD universe, if you can may different game? The only explanation I see (consider the fact that Larian did it on some reason, not just because they mad/crazy) is a so-called "money question". It is hard to pronounce new game as good and wide as already existing franchise. I know, business is business, people make money, that's the idea, but such sacrifices for the name of the money I can't accept. It's a shame. Unprofessional.

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The previous history has not been changed, other than dragon knights being conspicuously absent from the area of Rivellon shown in DD.

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If the same character was in the story.pdf and D2:ED, then it would certainly be a valid source of information, presumably reliable unless there were differences in the game. If there are no actual discrepancies, though, there is no reason to assume the older source is unreliable.


No, previous story WAS changed by changes in new plot and setting introduced in the new universe of D2. Yes, I say "new universe", because D2 completely differs from old DD/BD universe. Too many changes without logical background/preconditions in both universes, like with sudden disappearance of Orcs/dwarfes without even mentioning why (D2 part of story), like sudden appearance of some others wizards that were befriends with dragons and live in the part of the Rivellon that never heard about LoC, sudden appearance of Dragon Knight in the form as they are in D2 (half-dragon, not some wyvern-riders like in DD; DD/BD part of story). There are too many examples I even don't have such amount of free time to listen all of them, lol.

You can't accept D2 changes without accepting their influence at the universe we knew. Some things from 6yo "reliable" source got changed or deleted without explanation, some appeared in D2 without much sensible explanation as well. This is a silly and lame "deus ex" elements.

Now we have TWO universes and they ARE differs from each other. That's what I meant when I said "unpolished" and "unsynced". Devs broke things they made and teh efforts didn't cost the sacrifices.

It is good that copyrights aspects forced JoWood/Spellbound make Arcania, but not Gothic 4. Even if they ruined the universe like Larian did it has different name at last. All fans see continuation of teh series in Risen, but not in the Arcania/G3_addon ;P I really like this situation.

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The absence of orcs and dwarves in that area of Rivellon was not explained explicitly in the game, and there was just a book to suggest the elves went underground to hide and eventually died off. That doesn't mean they will not reappear in a subsequent game, though, either as NPCs or the remains of their civilizations.

Please, no suggestions, I already told you I'm not interested into fans suggestions. The situation is simple as a pumpkin: is there an explanation or not? OK, I understand, explanation can be in sequel, but why there is not even a mention about where are they and what happened? This part of the Rivellon nevar heard about them? No books or notes left? Srsy, the answer is simple: devs didn't care about that and didn't paid any attention to such deus ex elements they introduced, they even didn't bother to make some preconditions, not even a little
Shame.

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I said in many cases an explanation can be obvious.

Exactly, as mine was. It is obviously a gameplay element, not a part of the plot/setting so, it make no sense to take it so serious and trying to explain something devs didn't even paid attention. But of course all fans do such things. Awlays.
There were at least 1 man who agree with me and think there is no reason to take it so serious.

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Have I, at any point in this discussion, used personal attacks?

You did? I never said that, but since you mentioned it... oh well, I'm ok with it. No really, I got used of such "english remarks" already and you don't need to be ashamed of that. It's ok.

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Why can you call me fanboi, hypocrite, liar, troll and childish, yet I mention English isn't your native language and that is what settles the argument and shows who is right?

No, that was the only correct expressions/words I've found. As you just said - english isn't my native language, so I use everything I can to explain what I mean. But of course, even if it's suitable, it's can be unpolite I take it, so, that's why I'd add a note "(no offense)". Why did you ignore that? Do you want to state it as personal attacks to state something else? No need to choose such difficult path, just do it if you want.

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Is it unreasonable to think there may be misunderstandings due to language differences?

May be, but well, lesse. What's the misunderstanding you're talking about: some user asked a question, I answered to him and use the conception of his question as an example stated my opinion about the game's plot. The you came and suddenly start to argue with me about... about what, btw? So, word by word, we're here, where is a misunderstanding?

I know what I'm talking about, but somehow I'm unsure what are you talking about and no sure why are you started all this. And you - you know?

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I don't see lack of orcs and dwarves, for example, as a change in the history or universe. If Larian set a game at the southern border of Belgium, and had a few French areas and NPCs, it wouldn't be a different universe if they made another game 50km up the road and didn't mention France at all.
Because dragon knights ruled parts of Rivellon, it doesn't mean that they must have ruled every part, throughout all history. Pick even a tiny country with any kind of game industry or arts culture, and you are sure to find stories focused on that area, without mentioning nearby regions, even if they are powerful or influential.

Regardless, I do agree Larian should have had references to orcs and dwarves, etc, even without an actual explanation of what happened. They could have included a mention of the kingdom (dukedom?) of Ferol bearing the brunt of Damian's initial attack due to their refusal to accept the help of the dragon knights until it was too late, etc.



Why would I possibly be ashamed of thinking language differences could be part of the problem when you misunderstood what I was saying several times (about not analyzing Sassan's resurrection when I played that part of the game)?
Also, even if the statements about analyzing after the fact but not during the quest were in conflict, that is not what hypocrisy means (a conflict between what you do and what you say), so some form of language problem was evident.

I did not take offense at the personal insults you used, I just noted that you did in fact use them, but was quick to take offense to a comment about English not being your native language, which was in no way an insult, and not used as a way to dismiss your comments.
I thought I had explain things more clearly (an example earlier may have helped) but you still called me a liar/hypocrite, so either there was a misunderstanding (possibly due to language) or something else was going on.

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I think that in some of the Black Ring writings or dialogue, a reference is made to the Black Ring occupying Yuthul Gor, the homeland of the orcs, and using them as slave labour.

Since the elves who lived in the Dark Forest are mostly or completely gone, it might also explain why there aren't any dwarves around either - they sealed themselves up underground when the forces of the Black Ring marched on the Dark Forest.

Still, more references would be welcome, especially if it meant seeing those races again (as more than 100% hostile monsters).

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I don't see lack of orcs and dwarves, for example, as a change in the history or universe.


But I see *shrugs*
If you want to change the universe you've created do it in reasonable, logical way, We aren't some "angry german kid" who destroying it's own "sand castle" just because hit a finger about a stone. That's the difference between a serious plot and some infantile (childish) work of a kid. And that's why Dragon Age's plot is much better then D2's one and even you agree with that.
Now you're arguing with himself? :P

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If Larian set a game at the southern border of Belgium, and had a few French areas and NPCs, it wouldn't be a different universe if they made another game 50km up the road and didn't mention France at all.


"One cannot assume the truth of what one declares without presuming the falsity of all incongruous declarations. Since all men assume the truth of their declarations, this presumption becomes at best ironic and at worst outrageous. Given the infinity of possible claims, who could be so vain as to think their dismal claims true? The tragedy, of course, is that we cannot but make declarations."

You live in Canada I take it, right? Do you know about France? I bet you do. I bet you know about French language a bit, about ppl who lives in France. Hell, you even know about Australia or Africa. Why is that so? Right, may reason: mass-media, education, books... Books! There is a plenty of books in Divinity Universe. Hell, DD had much more books then TES3+TES4 along. And, if you remember, there were many information about dwarfes, elves, orcs, even dragons (important note: at that moment of events dragons were myths in Rivellon, they disappear; will use it later).
Now, let's follow my logical thread carefully: as we know from D2 geographical info - Broken Valley/Orobas Fjords not so far from Aleroth and Rivertown places. There are zeppelins flying in-between those lands. And yet, with all this possibilities of information/knowledge spreading (as books, as oral speech) one part of the Rivellon nevar heard about many wide and well known things, like, language of orcs/dwarfes, about things they make (dwarfes weapons/beer, elven jewerly, etc), not even and image or description of those races. Srsly, no matter how authentic Divinity Universe is, it always a copy, an allegory/parody of our world. Even in 12 century ppl from the North part of Earth (Great Britain for example) had some knowledge about black ppl of Africa (it was exotic), and it not just 50kms between, it is thousand miles.

Srsly, can you even hear your own words? "If Larian set a game at the southern border of Belgium, and had a few French areas and NPCs, it wouldn't be a different universe if they made another game 50km up the road and didn't mention France at all." - I BEG you to listen the sane voice of your mind. What you just said it is not even your usual suggestions, it is... sorry, but that's utterly stupid. Really.

P.S. Oh, and no, it is not an insult. Just FIY. Tbh, now I don't know which my words are insults for you and which aren't.

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Pick even a tiny country with any kind of game industry or arts culture, and you are sure to find stories focused on that area, without mentioning nearby regions, even if they are powerful or influential.

...
Well, I see a perfect trap here btw, it is shame to do not use it. Let's start then. To make an example is much more perfect we must take similar country as that part of Rivellon where D2 takes place in. Hmm, lesse, it has airships (zeppelins), it own history (dragon knights times, yeah, history lol, within 50 years), trade guilds (we saw many traders), uses earths' minerals - well, pretty developed "part", isn't? So, I must pick-up similar small country... lesse... "Republika ng Pilipinas" aka Philippines? So, are you trying to tell they know nothing about France or Canada, no mentions about other part of the world, about other races or their work (art, music)?
laugh
Srsly, your analogy looks silly now, isn't?
We can change times if you want, to match the age of D2 (it is setting who dictates us an aprox. age) but in the end it changes nothing. You got caught in your own trap and I can't help you here, sorry.

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Regardless, I do agree Larian should have had references to orcs and dwarves, etc, even without an actual explanation of what happened.

Exactly, they NEED preconditions, otherwise it is so-called Deus Ex machina element. A plot with such elements always was considered as low, cheap - exactly my point in this convo.
But they didn't. That's fact. Fact (one of many) that proves my point.

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I did not take offense at the personal insults you used

*le sigh*
I told you already, I haven't used any personal insults against you. It is how you WANT it to be, it is how you see it. My english isn't perfect but that does not mean I planned to insult you.
Well... whatever suits you. It is fun, actually, that you accept the bad state of my english but not not accept the after-effects/consequences of that. Are we again return back to hipocristy?

"I tell you, guilt dwells nowhere but in the eyes of the accuser."

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I thought I had explain things more clearly (an example earlier may have helped) but you still called me a liar/hypocrite, so either there was a misunderstanding (possibly due to language) or something else was going on.

Actually, come to think of it... Hm, interesting, I pointed on this discrepancy in your words within few posts of mine on previous page but you did give a suitable explanation only in your previos post, until that you were trying to avoid my point.
Why is that so? May be I was right?

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You live in Canada I take it, right? Do you know about France? I bet you do.

I do in fact know about France. If I walked into a few dozen houses around me and picked one book out of every bookcase, though, I may not find anything related to France. If BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan were under attack from the Northwest Territories and on the verge of going to war with each other, I don't know how often France would come up in conversation.

Even if a sequel is planned out in great detail, the first game can never foreshadow everything that is included 8 years later. Plenty of game series have added additional lands with lots of history that was never mentioned in the earlier games.


as we know from D2 geographical info - Broken Valley/Orobas Fjords not so far from Aleroth and Rivertown places. There are zeppelins flying in-between those lands.

Well, there are at least zeppelins flying back and forth 70+ years after DD took place. Before the war with Damian and the Black Ring, Rivertown was not necessarily as significant; Aleroth definitely wasn't.
The war also reshaped the land physically, with magic flattening mountains, etc, and even during BD the farmlands in Ferol were being taken over by swamp. The trade routes (for goods and information) during D2:ED are not all going to be the same as they were in DD.


What you just said it is not even your usual suggestions, it is... sorry, but that's utterly stupid. Really.

There are plenty of books, movies, games, etc that are set in a specific location, and do not include information about the world outside of there, or discuss knowledge each character would reasonably have that was not related to the situation they were in.


So, I must pick-up similar small country... lesse... "Republika ng Pilipinas" aka Philippines? So, are you trying to tell they know nothing about France or Canada, no mentions about other part of the world, about other races or their work (art, music)?

Of course they know about other parts of the world, but it is not necessarily going to come up in day to day conversations, and many books, legends, etc there will focus on that particular region, their history and culture.

Your point, as I understand it, is that because D2:ED introduced significant history not mentioned in DD/BD, it is effectively in a different game world. My point is that there are many stories (both historical and fictional) about specific regions and events, which do not mention other regions (even if they are nearby) or other events (even if they are important).

Right now if I flew to the Philippines, I'm sure I could find information about Canada, and possibly other Canadian travelers. If I stayed away from tourist areas, though, and there was some significant local event going on, I'm also sure I could do a fair bit of exploring and talking without finding any references at all to Canada (assuming I blended in, so there wasn't an obvious reason for people there to bring it up).

If someone came to my house, I don't know if they could find any evidence of the existence of the Philippines. I have a world atlas (somewhere) as well as an old set of encyclopedias and a couple odd travel books, but casual browsing of books and drawings around here wouldn't necessarily turn up anything. I don't know the last time the Philippines came up in conversation, so even if a house guest stayed here for awhile, they may not learn anything about it.



I told you already, I haven't used any personal insults against you.

I didn't say you planned or intended to insult me. You did use words that are generally insults, though (liar and hypocrite) unless they are backed up by proof, and personal terms (fanboi, troll) that are often used to dismiss a person rather than deal with the details of their argument (so they can be used as insults).


It is fun, actually, that you accept the bad state of my english but not not accept the after-effects/consequences of that.

Actually, I think a significant part of the problem was that your English is good enough that at first I wasn't allowing as much as I should have for possible inaccuracies.


Are we again return back to hipocristy?

In order to return I would have had to been there in the first place.

This is not a big deal, but you have been using that work incorrectly. Hypocrisy means taking a public position on something, but acting differently in private. A double standard is not hypocrisy (though obviously hypocrites have double standards), and neither is a lie (hypocrites are inherently dishonest, but a liar is not necessarily a hypocrite).

A conservative politician who campaigns on family values and has an affair is a hypocrite and a liar. A politician who has an affair but has never promoted family values or condemned anyone who had an affair is a liar, but not a hypocrite.
A actress who is active in liberal causes (like universal daycare) but guilty of tax evasion is a hypocrite. Someone who is not promoting a government program (creation or expansion) or trying to increase the scope of government, requiring everyone else to pay their taxes in order to fund, can evade taxes and not be a hypocrite.



Actually, come to think of it... Hm, interesting, I pointed on this discrepancy in your words within few posts of mine on previous page but you did give a suitable explanation only in your previos post, until that you were trying to avoid my point.

There was no discrepancy.

I did not try to avoid your point, and asked you several time for clarification of what your point was. You didn't clarify what you meant, presumably because you thought you were being as clear as I thought I was being.

While you may have only found the last explanation 'suitable', I did restate that point several times trying to make myself clearer. It was only after I couldn't see how anyone (at least a native English speaker) could not understand the logic that I considered and brought up language as a possible problem, and then after you replied, gave an example and added dates to my restating of the 'during' and 'after game' quest analysis statements.


Why is that so? May be I was right?

Nope, still wrong.






...on that particular issue, anyway. biggrin

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LOL actually for me it's just plot game but yeah sometimes I wonder about this too, but logically Sassan is more powerful than Ygerna since she only need a ring for everything will back just like before

I can take it and I didn't blame larian for this plot (once again just fun for it and it's just fantasy) sometimes it's funny but yeah it's just a game

but my question is Laiken have child with Carmina but not with Sassan LOL, was that Laiken don't like her or what? Or maybe Laiken already kill Sassan before try to have kids with her LOL? (this game really required lots of human, yeah whatever it's female or male, I noticed in some cave that have so many skeleton / too many sacrifice so if they don't breed more maybe human will perish in this game LOL)

Last edited by Dsky Wong; 30/07/14 09:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kein
"... the last Dragon Knight saved his loyal servant Ssassan by extinguishing a three candles on her grave with his own hands, a candles that even a strong wind wasn't able to extinguish. He ressurected her body by giving her a ring..."


What's exactly your point here? Did you play D2? Since the hero doesn't extinguish the candles "that not even a strong wind is able to", quite the opposite the hero calms the wind with a spell, to light the candles afterwards, because the strong wind prevented that. You make it sound like the Dragon Knight was some kind of superhero, who's stronger even than the nature's forces (the wind is of course magical, when you approach the grave, there's suddenly some strong wind, when seconds earlier, it was clear, but it still looks like a force of nature). And even if it was, like you made it sound, if a strong wind can't extinguish some candles (because of some strong magic kept them lit) and the hero can do that, well as a main character, a special gifted person, they should be able to do such a feature. Most prophecies work like that, a marked one, a hero from legends, an incarnate can do some really powerful stuff to prove, that they are the right person to save the world. Like Lucien, the Divine One for example. If they don't do that miraculous stuff, how are they different from a commoner? How could they later wield a powerful weapon/magic to stand against the evil, that they are destined to defeat (in most cases at least)?

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Argh, please don't summon him! D:


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Why not, I enjoyed reading through their conversation. XD This proves one of his points wrong, if he didn't understand a simple premise of a quest, the hero needs to find a spell to calm the wind, to be able to light up the candles and call Sasan's ghost, rather than "the hero being stronger than the strongest wind", the chances are, that he might be wrong with the other points as well. Isn't there a conversation with Sasan's ghost about the ring? Didn't she specified somehow the importance of it? I mean a spirit dwells in the physical world for some reason (we know that from the ghost near lady Morgana in Farglow), they could go to the Hall of Echoes at any given moment, but they refuse to do that, before their work is done (the spirit near Morgana has no unfinished business, he simply doesn't want to leave, he loves alchemy and wants to study it more). So it might not be the ring itself, that brought back Sasan to life, it might be the strong connection, that Sasan (well now Sasan's ghost, a powerful being that she is) builds to it. A spirit could do lot's of things, but they are like automats, they require an input (a specific business being finished, an item with a very strong connection, etc) to trigger the correct response.

Last edited by Levianne; 12/11/19 01:32 PM.
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I agree it was a good read. I am also amazed that it was allowed to continue. Kudos for that to Larian and Raze - private sites aren't all that popular now but many were there precisely because of the ease of getting kicked off company sites if the approved line wasn't followed.

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The approved line here is pretty much "say what you think"! As long as it's not actually illegal, disruptive or bullying, pretty much anything goes.


J'aime le fromage.
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