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Originally Posted by Stabbey
In other words, delete all caster classes and penalize hybrids? You do realize there are enemies strong in Element X, and every single mage has to at least dual-class, right? Not a fan.
For dual-class you are penalized by one point. You have two schools. Where is a problem?
Did you get used to Hex-o-class e.g. Jack-of-all-trades as a staple DOS build?
Did you noticed that any mage could use a tons of wands and a staffs with any element and any spells?
Did you notice a hell lot of scrolls and grenades?
Did you noticed that on the level 7 your inv is flooded by consumables without use?

Looks like, such a rule would bring at least some meaningful decisions in builds and resource usage, isnt it ?

Last edited by gGeo; 15/02/17 01:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by gGeo
Looks like, such a rule would bring at least some meaningful decisions in builds and resource usage, isnt it ?


Meaningful decisions would be really nice. Learning 2-3 combat schools with some depth seems very reasonable; you shouldn't be able to be good with more than 3-4 of them without a substantial drawback.

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Originally Posted by gGeo
Originally Posted by Stabbey
In other words, delete all caster classes and penalize hybrids? You do realize there are enemies strong in Element X, and every single mage has to at least dual-class, right? Not a fan.
For dual-class you are penalized by one point. You have two schools. Where is a problem?


Right here:

"For dual-class you are penalized by one point."

The concept of some restrictions for the skills you can learn isn't necessarily bad. The idea you proposed IS bad because it arbitrarily punishes anyone who is not a single-ability specialist and harshly punishes anyone who dares to take three abilities.


However, I can see a similar kind of restriction working with skill tiers, so that first tier skills only need a single point, Second tier skills need two points, third tier skills three or four points. So for instance, one point into Scoundrel will let you learn any of the Tier 1 Scoundrel skills you can buy at levels 1-3. At level 4, Tier 2 skills unlock and you'll need to spend a second Scoundrel point there to use those.


The difference is that one point in the ability is all you need for any first tier skills, you don't need two points to learn first tier skills.

Thus you can be a generalist with a lot of skills, but they are low-tier skills, and you'll need to invest further if you want better skills.

This will allow you to build a deck of low-tier utility skills, and encourage you to specialize into certain areas with higher tier requirements.

Last edited by Stabbey; 15/02/17 05:35 AM. Reason: a better response
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Originally Posted by Stabbey

The difference is that one point in the ability is all you need for any first tier skills, you don't need two points to learn first tier skills.

This will allow you to build a deck of low-tier utility skills, and encourage you to specialize into certain areas with higher tier requirements.
So you mean DOS1 skill point distribution ?
That has pretty the same result as current system.
Compare one lvl 5 skill to 5 new schools with lvl one.
This effect made any hero to take a point which ever school was even a bit usefull. Becouse it is hell lot of better.
e.g. every build in this system has at least 30% same skills. e.g. everyone is doing everything, again.

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So what if you shift gGeo's idea slightly:

1st point in first, second, and third school: 1 point
1st point in fourth school: 2 points
1st point in fifth school: 3 points
...

So you are encouraged to have a little diversity, but it grows more difficult if you spread out too much.

-OR-

You can only ever have points in 3-4 different schools, but you are able to sell old points back and respec. This might incur some cost or have a limitation or something so you can't constantly be respeccing, but it does allow you to grow and change over the course of the game.

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Originally Posted by gGeo
So you mean DOS1 skill point distribution ?
That has pretty the same result as current system.
Compare one lvl 5 skill to 5 new schools with lvl one.
This effect made any hero to take a point which ever school was even a bit usefull. Becouse it is hell lot of better.
e.g. every build in this system has at least 30% same skills. e.g. everyone is doing everything, again.


Not quite like D:OS 1. This game also has Memory to limit your known skills. And yes, I do prefer D:OS 1's skill distribution to your overly restrictive method.


People might also say that you don't need to invest attribute points into Memory because you can get enough from items. That's not a hard fix: change how Memory appears on items. For instance, Memory could only appear on Unique items, never random magic items. If that's too restrictive, then Memory could only appear on uniques and the lowest quality magic item - and even then, it would be the only modifier, so you could build your gear for Memory, or for other qualities, but it couldn't be at its full potential in both. That will encourage players to invest actual attribute points into Memory.


I do have another thought though: If you don't like the idea of making a character who picks up a point in everything, you could always not do that yourself. It's not like someone else making a do-everything character will hurt your experience.


Originally Posted by grysqrl
So what if you shift gGeo's idea slightly:

1st point in first, second, and third school: 1 point
1st point in fourth school: 2 points
1st point in fifth school: 3 points
...

So you are encouraged to have a little diversity, but it grows more difficult if you spread out too much.


That is better than the idea as originally proposed.


Quote
You can only ever have points in 3-4 different schools, but you are able to sell old points back and respec. This might incur some cost or have a limitation or something so you can't constantly be respeccing, but it does allow you to grow and change over the course of the game.


Sounds like it might be a bit complicated, and also that sounds exactly like what Memory is supposed to be doing. Seems to me like the problem there is too much Memory is available, probably because +Memory appears on items.

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Originally Posted by grysqrl
You can only ever have points in 3-4 different schools, but you are able to sell old points back and respec. This might incur some cost or have a limitation or something so you can't constantly be respeccing, but it does allow you to grow and change over the course of the game.
huh, I have read it 4th times and didnt get it.
Whatever rule would be introduce it should be as easy as one sentence.

Is there currently any build who doesnt use adrenalin and self haste? Unlimited opening new schools makes all builds works same, that is clear. Is it inteded or not ?

RPG ment Role Play Game. The role is a character bahaviour and also combat role. Currently Roles are somewhat blurred. Theoreticaly is possible to not build a staple jack-of-alltrades but it is clearly disadvantage.
As long as usual target is get the party badass, play a game intentionaly weaker doesnt make a sense.

What another barrier simple rule?
:"Any first level of a school costs 2 points. "
( And add 1 point to character creation. )
Its less steep also easy to understand.

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An example with a four-school limit: if you have points in pyro, aero, necro, and warcraft, you cannot put any points into hydro or two-handed unless you abandon one of the other schools (remove all of your points from it, probably at some cost). This allows you some flexibility to hybridize and change over time without being able to put one point into every school for the utility skills.

Is this a perfect solution? Certainly not. But in design it's pretty common to come up with good solutions by first looking at extreme examples and edge cases and finding useful components of those.

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Here's another idea that incentivizes you to focus on learning one thing at a time: it is cheaper to continue to study whatever you are already focused on. If the last thing I added a point to was scoundrel, I can continue to add to scoundrel for only one point, but it costs 2 points to start studying something else. Maybe after you hit level 3 on something, you can switch your focus to it for free. An example:

-Start with scoundrel 1, dual-wield 1. Current focus is either scoundrel or dual-wield.
-Scoundrel 2, dual-wield 1. This costs 1 point. Current focus is scoundrel.
-Scoundrel 3, dual-wield 1. This costs 1 point. Current focus is scoundrel.
-Scoundrel 3, dual-wield 1, pyro 1. This costs 2 points for switching focus. Current focus is pyro.
-Scoundrel 3, dual-wield 1, pyro 2. This costs 1 point. Current focus is pyro.
-Scoundrel 3, dual-wield 2, pyro 2. This costs 2 points for switching focus. Current focus is dual-wield.
-Scoundrel 4, dual-wield 2, pyro 2. This costs 1 point because you are switching to something you have 3+ expertise in. Current focus is scoundrel.


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First: Dual-wield is not a skill-tree
Second: So if you would want to level Scoundrel and pyro at the same pace, you would have to pay 2 every level because of switching the focus?

The problem is not, that you can learn several skill-tree. The problem is, you learn every skill from a tree just by putting in 1 point. You are also not limited about the amount of skills you are learning, memory only limits the amount of skill usable.

In D:OS you need to skill further to learn more skill of a tree and higher tier skills of a tree. Those limitations are totally missing now and the main reason for all this mess. To make this undone would be probably the easiest solution. If a skill like Adrenaline is overused you could just Tier it up, and it would afford more investment automatically.

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Just remembered something while discussing about 'Rage':

There was a third limitation for reducing the amount of over-crossclassing:

In D:OS 1 you had the chance to fail even a buff if your attributes were to low for that skill.

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