Larian Banner: Baldur's Gate Patch 9
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So I finally completed act 1 including every quest. I liked how game reacts to my actions and what I have in my inventory. Still there are some instances where NPC do not react even though they should. Or I can't say the logical thing to say. Or reactions do not make sense. So I decided to make a list of such moments. Hope it's helpful in some way! If anybody remembers anything else I'll add it to the list too.

Since most of my complaints are "why nobody cares when I kill people?!" I hope that's just an alpha thing and the system for that hasn't been implemented yet. But since D:OS1 didn't have such a system I'm still worried a bit. So here's the list:

-When talking with Gawin he asks if I'm alone. I can have a full party behind me, still say yes and he believes me.
-Loved how Gawin dies in different places depending on how many enemies on his path I killed. So this time I decided to see how far he can go. Killed every enemy on the island including Alexandar. Jumped after Gawin with Tactical Retreat (he didn't care. I would be worried if somebody I just abandoned on the cliff impossible to escape suddenly teleported near me...). Followed him all the way. Then on the location of Chain Lightning voidwoken fight he dropped dead for no reason. Must be a powerful curse in play.
-Speaking of Gawin. "Yes, I sell the teleporter skillbook. But I won't ask you to buy it from me. I'll ask you to go fight some crocodiles."
-Butters sells Tactical Retreat book. Why's she still in Fort Joy? Possible to escape with just this skill and zero fights teleporting from the tower near Oriwand.
-Traders in general. Where do they get this shiny new gear every level (complained about this in several threads).
-Speaking about gear. Why is what Gareth sells better than Braccus gear? Must be finding some ancient treasury every level. Same for pig vendor.
-Now to my favorite part about how I killed every magister on the island and nobody cares.
-When Amyro is freed Sahelia says something like only I'm destinied to escape and survive so she won't try. Now that'd be fine if every last magister in Fort Joy wasn't dead. Why can't I say "Sahelia there's no way for you to die. There are no magisters and no skeletons in the swamps left. You'll only need to walk some distance across the completely safe swamp"? Then again she might know something considering Gawin's fate...
-The elven woman waiting for Atusa. I can tell her Atusa is dead. Why can't I tell her to follow me so that I could lead her out of the fort?
-Same for Butters. Why no I'll help you escape option.
-Griff would probably try to establish his rule if all the magisters were dead.
-And so on for every other Fort Joy prisoner.
-Why can't I tell the seekers "Hey guys, Fort Joy now has no guards so you can go and free all the prisoners"?
-Griff gang is the same. Why nobody cares they died?
-Dallis fight. Nebora, I just fought Dallis herself and made her retreat. Why do you still want me to win the arena fight to prove I'm worthy? Griff, Dallis retreated from our battle. Are you sure you still want to attack me over some stolen drunadae? Even worse for every NPC attacking over a stolen spoon. Alexandar, why don't you remember me when we meet in harbor? I almost killed you near the Fort Joy gates. Dallis, why are you only level 7? Magisters, you just saw your leader turning a dragon. Are you sure you knew that she could?
-Ate Gratiana's soul. She died (good!). nobody cared (...). Gareth was telling me to go ask Gratiana about another armory while staying near her corpse.
-By the way. Why there's a huge marker saying "Misterious cave" on my map? Don't remember anybody telling me but might've forgotten.
-The grieving elf near Tolemi and 2 other totured seekers. Why doesn't he react when I kill them with restoration?
-How did paladin Cork leave the island?
-All the seekers are level 7, Fort Joy magisters are level 4. Why didn't they just attack Fort Joy? Wouldn't be challenging with such a difference.

That's all I could remember for now. I'll probably add more after my next playthrough or if somebody can add anything else.

Things I'm going to try next time:
-Killing Gareth myself after saving him. Then telling the seekers I did.
-Killing Sahelia before saving Amyro. Then telling him I did.
-And adding how much I regret it while playing as Lohse.
-Before Gareth fight there are 4 magisters I can trick to leave. I'm going to test if they join Alexanda fight. If not, where do they go?
-Giving drunadae back to Stingtail.

Edit 03/16/17:
-Fort Joy prisoners sell source skillbooks. Magisters are fine, I guess?
-credit to Hoodless: Killed Alexander and EVERYTHING remotely related to the magisters on the whole island before saving Gareth. No dialogue option to tell Gareth or the seekers about my accomplishment, they didn't acknowledge it and after gathering the whole seeker crew at the already cleared out ruins they refused to advance into attack no matter what dialogue options I chose.

Edit 03/17/17:
-Clarification on prison merchants updating their inventory: It's not all the gear from prison merchants I have a problem with. This can really be explained with crafting and exploration. It's mostly skillbooks updating each level and tier 2 skillbooks they start selling at level 4. Where do those come from? Also Fort Joy merchants selling level 8 gear is strange too. If both gear past level 4 and tier 2 skillbooks were eliminated from prison merchants we still wouldn't have to fight with sticks but it would be more realistic.
-NPC really want to die when they attack my level 8 party over a stolen spoon. I'd be more careful with whom I fight to death. Even if they stole something from me.
-NPC have no memory. Withermoore is the worst offender. "Oh, so many year have passed already!". 5 seconds later talking with my other team member: "Oh, didn't know it's been so long already!". Well, yes, you clearly need that memory+1 belt.
-credit to Stabbey: Where, exactly, are prisoners NORMALLY supposed to arrive at Fort Joy. You know, the ones whose ship doesn't wreck on the way there. The prison docks are in poor condition and have wrecked ships sunk at port. The east end of the island has a long hike through magister-killing-undead-infested jungle.
-credit to Stabbey: Where the hell do the Magisters sleep and eat? They have no quarters, no storage, no kitchen. This island gets tons of storms judging by the shipwrecks everywhere, and the guards are apparently sleeping in the rain? Why don't they have a place to prepare food? The prisoners have a kitchen.

Last edited by Alanta; 17/03/17 03:40 AM.
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Killed Alexander and EVERYTHING remotely related to the magisters on the whole island before saving Gareth. No dialogue option to tell Gareth or the seekers about my accomplishment, they didn't acknowledge it and after gathering the whole seeker crew at the already cleared out ruins they refused to advance into attack no matter what dialogue options I chose.

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Really great list. I tried to do this in my post this is much more concise and organized. I wonder how they're gonna fix all the messed up quest triggers if they only let us test the first act.

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Quote
-Traders in general. Where do they get this shiny new gear every level (complained about this in several threads).
-Speaking about gear. Why is what Gareth sells better than Braccus gear? Must be finding some ancient treasury every level. Same for pig vendor.


Yes eliminate gear from merchants, so that so we have to fight with moldy sticks for the first 8 levels until escaping the island. (Sometimes immersion has to sit down and shut up for the sake of fun and balance.)


Quote
-Now to my favorite part about how I killed every magister on the island and nobody cares.
-When Amyro is freed Sahelia says something like only I'm destinied to escape and survive so she won't try. Now that'd be fine if every last magister in Fort Joy wasn't dead. Why can't I say "Sahelia there's no way for you to die. There are no magisters and no skeletons in the swamps left. You'll only need to walk some distance across the completely safe swamp"? Then again she might know something considering Gawin's fate...
-The elven woman waiting for Atusa. I can tell her Atusa is dead. Why can't I tell her to follow me so that I could lead her out of the fort?
-Same for Butters. Why no I'll help you escape option.
-Griff would probably try to establish his rule if all the magisters were dead.
-And so on for every other Fort Joy prisoner.
-Why can't I tell the seekers "Hey guys, Fort Joy now has no guards so you can go and free all the prisoners"?
-Griff gang is the same. Why nobody cares they died?


This is immersion breaking, yes, but Larian really doesn't want the migraine of having to program in a billion reactions for every NPC. That said it could probably be handled in a different way by simply having some guards which are impossible to beat in a fight. But that likely won't happen.

Larian really wants their cake and eating it too by giving players full freedom to kill everyone, but not wanting to follow through on the consequences.


Quote
-Dallis fight. Nebora, I just fought Dallis herself and made her retreat. Why do you still want me to win the arena fight to prove I'm worthy? Griff, Dallis retreated from our battle. Are you sure you still want to attack me over some stolen drunadae? Even worse for every NPC attacking over a stolen spoon. Alexandar, why don't you remember me when we meet in harbor? I almost killed you near the Fort Joy gates.


Yes, this is odd. I honestly don't understand why Larian lets you fight and defeat those guys at all. It seems silly and that ladder could be easily removed and no one would notice.

All that long list of immersion-breaking stuff and you managed to miss a lot too:

  • Where, exactly, are prisoners NORMALLY supposed to arrive at Fort Joy. You know, the ones whose ship doesn't wreck on the way there. The prison docks are in poor condition and have wrecked ships sunk at port. The east end of the island has a long hike through magister-killing-undead-infested jungle.
  • Where the hell do the Magisters sleep and eat? They have no quarters, no storage, no kitchen. This island gets tons of storms judging by the shipwrecks everywhere, and the guards are apparently sleeping in the rain? Why don't they have a place to prepare food? The prisoners have a kitchen.




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More and better loot drops would help with not having to fight with sticks and without breaking immersion. You are fighting dozens of Magister, there should be enough stuff dropable for decent equipment.

Also the harbour is in its condition because of the same reason you got shipwrecked? At least my guess.

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As for where shops in the prison get their inventory...

Prison economy.

The prisoners are continuously trading and moving and stealing. Even the guards and officials might be part of the prison economy.

Not to mention as we can see the Island is full of ruins, sunken ships, and arcane secrets. So there is more then enough places they could be.

In fact it wasn't unusual for Wardens to trade favor to prisoners for their services in real life.

So yes... this whole "It doesn't make sense" makes perfect sense as long as you don't assume that this is a maximum security prison where people are frisked constantly.

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But they are, they are not allowed to leave the prison area and probably wouldn't survive the swamplands anyway. And even if there is a prison economy it would be far more static and the self-named leader of the prison would be having pretty everything under his control.

Also people there do not only get frisked, they also get abducted, tortured, killed, brain-washed and probably other stuff.

Thinking about it, the prisoner are pretty calm regarding the fact how easily they could be next?

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Really what is this section of the game where you get frisked?

Also the "Prison section" is... well 50% of the island and includes two treasure caves (err three... no wait four)

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Quote
-Traders in general. Where do they get this shiny new gear every level (complained about this in several threads).
-Speaking about gear. Why is what Gareth sells better than Braccus gear? Must be finding some ancient treasury every level. Same for pig vendor.


Yes eliminate gear from merchants, so that so we have to fight with moldy sticks for the first 8 levels until escaping the island. (Sometimes immersion has to sit down and shut up for the sake of fun and balance.)


It's not all the gear from prison merchants I have a problem with. This can really be explained with crafting and exploration. It's mostly skillbooks updating each level and tier 2 skillbooks they start selling at level 4. Where do those come from? Also Fort Joy merchants selling level 8 gear is strange too. If both gear past level 4 and tier 2 skillbooks were eliminated from prison merchants we still wouldn't have to fight with sticks but it would be more realistic.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
Quote
-Now to my favorite part about how I killed every magister on the island and nobody cares.
-When Amyro is freed Sahelia says something like only I'm destinied to escape and survive so she won't try. Now that'd be fine if every last magister in Fort Joy wasn't dead. Why can't I say "Sahelia there's no way for you to die. There are no magisters and no skeletons in the swamps left. You'll only need to walk some distance across the completely safe swamp"? Then again she might know something considering Gawin's fate...
-The elven woman waiting for Atusa. I can tell her Atusa is dead. Why can't I tell her to follow me so that I could lead her out of the fort?
-Same for Butters. Why no I'll help you escape option.
-Griff would probably try to establish his rule if all the magisters were dead.
-And so on for every other Fort Joy prisoner.
-Why can't I tell the seekers "Hey guys, Fort Joy now has no guards so you can go and free all the prisoners"?
-Griff gang is the same. Why nobody cares they died?


This is immersion breaking, yes, but Larian really doesn't want the migraine of having to program in a billion reactions for every NPC. That said it could probably be handled in a different way by simply having some guards which are impossible to beat in a fight. But that likely won't happen.

Larian really wants their cake and eating it too by giving players full freedom to kill everyone, but not wanting to follow through on the consequences.


It was fine in the first game because
1. Nobody played it for the story anyway.
2. Killing everything wasn't the intended way to play so most players didn't encounter the immersion breaking moment of no reaction to killing.

Here the story is really good and killing all the magisters is the intended way to play. Killing Griff gang is a legitimate quest solution too. So I think there should be some kind of reaction.

Being able to kill everybody is fine but kinda pointless if it changes nothing. The whole point of having freedom is watching how your actions result in different reactions from the world which is not the case with killing currently.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
Quote
-Dallis fight. Nebora, I just fought Dallis herself and made her retreat. Why do you still want me to win the arena fight to prove I'm worthy? Griff, Dallis retreated from our battle. Are you sure you still want to attack me over some stolen drunadae? Even worse for every NPC attacking over a stolen spoon. Alexandar, why don't you remember me when we meet in harbor? I almost killed you near the Fort Joy gates.


Yes, this is odd. I honestly don't understand why Larian lets you fight and defeat those guys at all. It seems silly and that ladder could be easily removed and no one would notice.


This fight is fun though. It doesn't need the whole lot of reactions to it, just with Nebora, Griff and Alexandar. NPC fighting to death over a stolen spoon is a separate issue, I should probably list it separately.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
All that long list of immersion-breaking stuff and you managed to miss a lot too:

  • Where, exactly, are prisoners NORMALLY supposed to arrive at Fort Joy. You know, the ones whose ship doesn't wreck on the way there. The prison docks are in poor condition and have wrecked ships sunk at port. The east end of the island has a long hike through magister-killing-undead-infested jungle.
  • Where the hell do the Magisters sleep and eat? They have no quarters, no storage, no kitchen. This island gets tons of storms judging by the shipwrecks everywhere, and the guards are apparently sleeping in the rain? Why don't they have a place to prepare food? The prisoners have a kitchen.



There are a lot of things I missed. Didn't list anything related to companions. Should probably add the whole thing with NPC having no memory.

I'll add what you listed to the list. I didn't really think about it when I played.

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The Dallis fight, to me, seems more like an Easter Egg. Given that you cannot beat that fight straight forward... and simply by doing it you are clearly breaking canon in two. It is an exploit that has a nice bonus for doing it.

No one really reacting to it makes sense. Since, it basically never happened.

Heck we even see in the island that her bodyguards alone are more then capable of murdering you.

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The problem with merchants is not the prison itself, it just even stronger there.

The whole island is isolated and far away from the typical trading routes. There is a reason why the Seekers are so desperately trying to get away from the island. The can't leave but get tons of fancy stuff? Also they have all those fancy skill books, but noone of them can learn any kind of healing skill?

Also as somebody already mentioned: all those fancy treasure stuffs like Bracchus get easily old, because you can buy better stuff soon.

If you tune down the enemies it would not even hurt to have less fancy stuff to buy. But on the other hand tuning down the magisters would break the immersion from a different point, I guess. You kind of can kill to many Magister who seem to be to weak for the real felt importance.

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Alanta Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Kalrakh
The problem with merchants is not the prison itself, it just even stronger there.

The whole island is isolated and far away from the typical trading routes. There is a reason why the Seekers are so desperately trying to get away from the island. The can't leave but get tons of fancy stuff? Also they have all those fancy skill books, but noone of them can learn any kind of healing skill?

Also as somebody already mentioned: all those fancy treasure stuffs like Bracchus get easily old, because you can buy better stuff soon.

If you tune down the enemies it would not even hurt to have less fancy stuff to buy. But on the other hand tuning down the magisters would break the immersion from a different point, I guess. You kind of can kill to many Magister who seem to be to weak for the real felt importance.


I once killed every magister in the Fort Joy without buying a single weapon or armor piece. Also cleared the entire island except final fight without buying from Gareth and the pig vendor. So all this gear isn't really necessary. Braccus set should be by far the best thing one can find on the island if the story is to be believed. Purple gear needs severe nerf both from balance and immersion perspectives.

Originally Posted by Kalrakh
Also they have all those fancy skill books, but noone of them can learn any kind of healing skill?

That's just so true I'll add it to the list. Moreover, Gratiana sells a unique ring that grants restoration spell. Why wasn't it used and they needed me to use the same restoration spell?

Edit: can't edit the initial post anymore so will have to make another one when the list of things to add is long enough.

Last edited by Alanta; 17/03/17 05:02 PM.

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