Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - General On balance

Mages are garbage in this game. I do not think this is necessarily an issue with the dual armor system but rather encounter/enemy/skill design.

1. Magical damage is for the most part AOE damage. However, the game hugely favours single target damage due to the round robin Initiative system and encounter design. Unless you know the encounter beforehand and go through the trouble of setting up, the starting position is that your party is clumped together and gets AOE'd down while the enemies are all seated in four different corners.

2. Leaving aside the fact that enemies spawn in different locations, targeting a particular enemy down is really hard. Your best single target spells are usually also your best AOE spells. A Fireball on four enemies can be awesome, but a Fireball on a single enemy is usually underwhelming. So, for example, let's say that a physical damage party of 4 against an enemy party of 4 kills one enemy per turn. Meanwhile, the magic damage party will kill all four enemies on turn 4 but will suffer heavy losses while doing so.

3. Magic AOE deals damage to friendlies while physical AOE does not. Fireball deals damage to your party but Whirlwind does not.

4. Mages have severely reduced mobility by contrast to physical damage dealers. Physical damage skill trees have a ton of mobility skills, e.g. Phoenix Strike, Cloak & Dagger, Backlash, Blitz Attack, Battering Ram, Tactical Retreat, etc. Mages do not have these. So the usual outcome is that the enemies teleport on top of the mages and the only option for the mages is to AOE themselves down while boosting magic armour (whereas for a melee character having enemies teleport on top of him is a blessing). This ties in with #3 - by damaging enemies you are damaging yourself and your party. As if this was not bad enough, almost every melee enemy in the game has Attack of Opportunity, meaning that there is really no point in trying to reposition as you will be taking extra damage.

5. Magical armour tends to be a lot higher than physical armour. You are facing reduced single target potential with increased magical armour.

6. Resistances. Physical there be none. Every other enemy in the game has some kind of a magical resist. Most importantly bosses. You take an encounter that is meant to be challenging and then add another layer of difficulty to it by ensuring that you only deal 30% of your damage to the enemies. The way that the game works is that you tend to specialise in 2 skill schools - let's say Pyromancy and Geomancy. But then you present an enemy that either has ridiculously high resistances to both schools or make you heal him outright. This makes your party member an outright liability in a fight, or at best a meat shield.

7. Cooldowns. Ties in with 6. Your elemental nuke deals as much damage as an autoattack by a physical DPS. Except that you cannot use it for another 3 turns while they use theirs 3 times per turn. So your mage is sitting with their pants down for all of these rounds - hopefully not attacking lest the damage type from one of the wands / staff heal the enemy.

Most importantly - how to fix this?

1. Meld physical and magical armour into one. No CC until you blow through the armour but there is only one type to get through. Make the armour threshold high and HP threshold lower.

2. Remove Attack of Opportunity from most enemies. This is crushing for casters but irrelevant for melee/rangers because of their movement abilities.

3. Remove resistances. The concept that certain characters/builds should be outright locked out/be detrimental in a fight because of their build type is silly. Find another use for runes.

4. Nerf physical. Nerfing is never a pleasant process, but this damage type is far too strong. Killing the final boss in one round is unlikely to be desirable.

Yep. The encounter design (you barely ever see enemies in larger groupings than pairs. Typically they are all spread out.) greatly favors single target damage, in which elemental casters are inferior in almost every way. Lower base damage and they have to contend with resists on top of that. Magic armor does always seem to be higher than physical too, so what is going on with this? It's like a triple penalty for no good reason.

To add insult to injury, the physical forms of CC are better than anything elemental.

It's almost like elemental damage is gutted so hard because Summons exist. Summoning 10 is strong early and up to a bit beyond mid game--where your summons start becoming nothing but a beefy ally that does grossly inferior damage compared to the rest of the group. A full physical group is always the superior choice right now in every single encounter.

Nerfing physical isn't remotely the solution either, because making them deal less damage doesn't magically improve the performance of casters. It makes them closer, but all you're doing is lowering the effectiveness of physical, trying to make it as crappy as elemental instead of improving elemental, which is the issue in the first place.

Also, I don't entirely agree with removing enemy Opportunity. You shouldn't be in melee range with your casters anyway other than when a Warrior decides to Phoenix Dive inside your party. It's also not really a waste to invest two into Hunstman for Tactical Retreat. Casters get the elevation bonus too...

I've not played physical damage dealers enough to know whether they need nerfing or magic just needs buffing/reimagining. Both should be balanced against the encounters in the game and offer roughly equal challenge.

If summons are a factor in balancing casters, their damage certainly ought to scale with int. As it is, there's no real barrier to summoning by non-mages.

Yep - you have it in one with the 'encounter model' primarily used in the game - hidden model ambush.

This system was old on Space Crusade the Board Game, or Ice Wind Dale 2 on PC - by now, every time I see 5 extra wolves or skeletons pop out of the ground because I talked to some random solitary power figure *I just feel embarrassed* for Larian Studios.

This game has nothing on Baldurs Gate 2, Wasteland 2 or any other game where you can see your enemy ahead of the battle and plan accordingly in a non cheesy manner. (i.e.: don't carry 4 oil barrels and drop them using stealth before battle)

In all honesty, I think Larian should go back to single character full 3d RPGs.

What if you're just bad at the game?

Mages can do so much more on the battlefield than any physical class. It's harder to quantify than hitting with a sword, but there's so many ways they can mess with things it just smacks of ignorance in your end.

You might want a point or two in scoundrel/huntsman/polymorph just to get some mobility options. You might want to get a shield. You might want some memory so you can remember more than 3 spells. You might want to remember staves have a 1 per round stats. You might want to remember elemental vulnerability exists and you can exploit them. You might want trio think about positioning and tactics.

The only problem I see is that earth is the only magic skill with different damage types and thus the most flexible. Ignoring the transient nature of summoning

i don't really agree with the mobility issue, spread your wings has an ap activation cost but then allows you mobility for 3 turns in a row, no warrior/rogue mobility skill allows this

it's only really an issue in the earliest part of the game when your team in general is less mobile

Polymorph is not a magical skilltree, it is a physical skilltree at core.

I agree with most of the problems but not with the suggested fixes.

Resistances - I would advocate for adding physical resistance and very high dodge to a number of mobs instead. They should be pretty common (as common as elemental ones). You should not be able to fireball or chop everything to death maxing 1 skill and stat. If you don't have the tools, your fault. Add physically immune enemies as well (on tactician at least).

Attacks of opportunity - tbh never felt like this way a problem and mages also have some positioning tools like teleport or netherswap (or you can spare a couple of points and learn anything you want from physical schools)

Nerf physical - very much agree, the damage stacking on physical is obscene and while it's ok earlygame, scaling needs to be adjusted

Meld physical and magical armor into 1 - tbh I'm not a fan of how current system ended up in general, but merging armor types is a very radical change, so highly unlikely, and I doubt it would solve actual problems. I'm ok with having mobs that are better to fight with elemental and mobs that are better to fight with physical, as long as mobs also have physical resists, beacuse currently due to resists physical is often massively better even against mobs with high phys armor anyway.

Actually, the only real ignornace here is coming from your own inexperience. The amount of options that exist in any given moment don't really matter if there's always a single, superior choice that trumps them all; killing them outright.

Replay the game as an all physical team (that has at least two Rangers and one Rogue. The third can be whatever) before commenting.

I'm actually currently almost through Act 2 with a four elemental caster group, and it's been absolute hell compared to my previous two playthroughs (Warrior, Ranger, Summoner/Buffer, Geo/Pyro and 3x Rangers with one Rogue), so it's not like I don't know what to expect with the encounters.

You could try to argue that the game was balanced around a "balanced" group that includes at least one caster, if not two and two physical damage dealers. Maybe that was their goal, but if it was then they failed horribly. The only reason such a team "works" comparably easy through the game is because of the two physical damage dealers, not the casters. You don't need them for anything when potions exist too.

Now maybe things would look different if encounters hosted either more enemies, or tighter clusters of enemies so that elemental AoE could shine, but right now it doesn't.
Gee, do I want to hit 2-3 enemies for 125 damage each, or do I want to hit one for 500? Boy, those options have me on edge, I can't decide!



Sure, but that kind of doesn't matter for the skills that don't actually scale with anything or require physical armor to be gone like Chameleon, Spread Your Wings, Spider Legs, Terrain Transmutation (if anything, this is in the "magic" purview), Equalize, Skin Graft, Apotheosis and Forced Exchange. I use that tree with everyone, but I don't go beyond a single point for most until I want Aptheosis.



It also stalls your first turn, and isn't a better option than the Cloak and Dagger + Phoenix Dive/Tactical Retreat combos unless the fight drags out and you can actually get to the enemies you need to get to without wasting more AP. It also requires a two point diversion into another tree, so unless you're picking up Chameleon with your casters, it's better to go through Huntsman anyway. Tactical Retreat is essentially free by the second turn since you get your AP back, and a movement bonus on top of that.

It's armor. No two ways about it. You can't balance a game where enemies have two CC immunities you need to drill down to CC anything. This means a straight murder group all phys is the clear winner on every encounter.

I'm not even sure consolidating the two walls is going to fix anything. Maybe consolidate the physical and magical armor armor into a willpower meter. When the meter is drained you become more susceptible to CC. But CC should work at full willpower, too. I would say rolls against willpower should get better when the enemy has 0 willpower remaining. All attacks would get a willpower damage number with magic attacks possibly being higher damage to willpower.

This way armor could return to a physical damage reducer and shields block again.

Then the game is much closer to the original and far less build prohibiting.

http://larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=605011#Post605011

This was my solo mage guide in early access, a lot of the stuff mentioned is nerfed but I still consider mage to be stronger, try reading this and see if it changes your mind. I'm currently level 5 in my new solo run, and things are working out pretty well.

I don't know why Lone Wolf builds keep being mentioned, as if the majority of players are going to want to solo the entire game with one character that has comparatively inflated stats, damage and AP that can also do more in the first turn than the group can combined. You can do similar things with a Ranger abusing Chameleon and Sneak.

The game is clearly designed around a four party group, knowing that many will choose to duo as well. Also, Skin Graft is what made your run as strong as it was, and that's no longer valid. You cannot have Time Warp with Flesh Sacrifice either normally. You can do this with Fane, but you have to essentially give up your helmet slot to do so. Another thing is that you don't have access to the same spells at the end of Act 1 that you had when you did that fight.

Also, some fights seem to be hard coded to not give a shit about your initiative. The boss will always go first, or at least if that's not the case, then they have 60+ initiative. Good luck with Glass Cannon during those encounters.

A non LW Rogue can take out the non weakened Doctor before it even gets a turn.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. As for background, I am on gardening leave and have been caning this game like an absolute fiend - 171H clocked so far. I have finished the game three times now - first time with a standard non-synergised party of four on Classic, second time with a Lone Wolf physical duo on Classic and third time with a different Lone Wolf physical duo on Tactician. Also tried and dropped a couple of other builds. I much prefer Lone Wolf because for me it turns combat from tedious to fun.

I am currently playing a Lone Wolf wizard duo and have just encountered Mordus. With my physical teams I would just cut him down in the first round of combat and that is that. With my mages, this is simply not possible because I lack the direct damage and his resists are way too high.

Mordus phase 1:
https://i.imgur.com/k8zrgQk.png

On turn 2 he goes into phase 2 in which he has 945 physical armour, 504 magical armour and 5,628 health:
https://i.imgur.com/XbzCtz1.png

His resistances also get boosted so that he is not only immune to poison but also earth and his fire res gets a boost, putting him at 60% for fire and air:
https://i.imgur.com/048h8RM.png

My Laser Ray does 103 damage to him:
https://i.imgur.com/6y8ourf.png

On top of that, he has Perseverance in both phases, meaning that he restores magical armour off your CC. The earth and poison immunities mean that the caster adds literally wand him to heal him back up if he takes any damage.

What the fuck? Who thought this was good design by any stretch of imagination? Elemental damage is already stretched across various schools, meaning that you cannot really focus on more than two without tradeoffs. One of my wizards is Geo/Pyro, meaning that he is essentially locked out of the fight as far as the main boss is concerned (he can deal with the adds). The other one is Hydro/Aero. These spells do some damage to him but obviously the cooldowns are too long for the damage to be meaningful. Why would you just lock certain builds out of fights altogether?

Look, I appreciate that nothing is unbeatable in this game and the reason I love this game is because of the freedom of approach it provides. My builds are not perfectly optimised. I could go back to the ship and reallocate some skill points, buy some more skill books, upgrade some gear, get another level or two and then return and beat his face in (by the way, good job on the voice actor, Mordus is one of my favourite characters in the game). However, I should not need to do this. The difficulty of this fight is simply brutal by contrast to anything that comes before and after it. It is, flat out, a very poorly designed encounter.


@Sanctuary - broadly agree with you on most points and appreciate the comments. However, I know that I can invest points in other schools for more mobility. The point that I am making is that the physical classes do not need to do dilute their builds for these tools. All physical classes use Warfare, which provides flat out the most outrageous amount of mobility in the game. Combine this with Scoundrel or Huntsman and you really are spoilt for choice.

Also, I am not suggesting that physical should be nerfed to make magical more viable. Rather, independently, physical is simply too powerful and trivialises any challenge. You should not have to artificially increase the difficulty by playing a sub-optimal build.

combat-wise, sure. but it has uses for each class, both in terms of skill and the fact that it grants +attribute. you could say the same for huntsman, since high ground damage boost helps mages too, but polymorph feels like a more well-rounded tree for any class to dabble into

it also just depends on preference; tactical retreat gives you haste and is 1ap, spread your wings + flight is 2ap and doesn't haste you but allows you to reposition several turns in a row. it's a trade off, i think both are good

The single largest problem with elemental damage is that it doesn't scale with your weapon. That is the biggest benefit physical classes have, not any school division. Resists are stupid and a secondary problem, but not the biggest. Usually.

All physical classes want to invest 10 into Warfare.

An elemental caster can do similar by dumping 10 into their school of choice. I'm not clear on whether or not elemental schools are additive or multiplicative though (not like it really matters in the end). Problem is when you come up against those 50% - 100% resistances that you know full well about. Physical has nothing comparable to deal with.

Physical classes DO need to invest in other schools too for better mobility options, especially Warriors. Scoundrel builds do by default simply because they are going to need at least two into Scoundrel for a while for skills anyway, but their primary way to raise damage is through Warfare (plus they have the advantage with not only Backlash, but their AP to damage conversion in general seems way more efficient throughout most of the game). Same thing with Rangers and Huntsman.

After maxing 10 in Warfare, with 2-3 (depending on the build) in another school for skills, the physical builds can focus capping either Scoundrel, Huntsman and Two-Handed; or in the case of the Ranger, a mix of Huntsman and Ranged due to all of the flat footed encounters.

After maxing any random element, a caster can max out Huntsman or go for a mix of Huntsman and Scoundrel (once you hit around 50% critical chance) for either the elevation bonus (which becomes useless for many fights) or critical damage bonus with some extra movement.

Again though, physical classes have the clear advantage because of how their weapons affect all of the damage they do. For whatever inexplicable reason, aside from a few stat bonuses, casters don't get the same benefit, and there's no logical reason why.

Here's a comparison of end game damage. Simply looking at this makes it seem like casters are actually in a good spot. What it doesn't factor is resists, which may as well slash all of those figures in half. On average, and sometimes damage is nullified entirely.

http://divinityoriginalsin2.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Divinity-Original-Sin-2/fO6mOM3.jpg




This wouldn't work on Tactician at all. Instead of simply making physical damage "worse" in general, it would greatly favor Rangers even more than they already are.

Inflation is a problem, but it doesn't actually feel bad until Act 3 and beyond.

Edit: However, if you really want to "be all that you can be" with a caster, you can now take advantage of the properly scaling scrolls. This ends up requiring a lot more busywork in regards to crafting (more expensive as well as simply finding or buying the necessary materials), similar to grenade use. With the proper scrolls, since they are actually cheaper to cast than the spells are normally, you can wipe out quite a few fights easier that way than you can with an all physical group.

Of course this also requires the perfect scenario where there are no immunities or even high resists against the scroll element you want to use in the first place. Does that make them balanced? I'd say no, but you do now have the option to make them somewhat closer sometimes. It's just a matter of how much extra effort you really want to put forth to make it happen.

Just my 2 cents as someone who also thought mages were weak. In my second playthrough on tactician mode (2 char lone wolf) my mage is just destroying everything eith thunderstorm. And I really mean destroy all enemies in 1-2 turns...so I dont know. My warrior just watch the dead bodies...

Okay. So you're "destroying" encounters using a spell you don't have access to until level 15 - 16 that also requires three source if not using the scroll? You can get similar results with Hail Storm and Meteor Shower. So? Arrow Storm does about the same, but without the stun.

Again, you're using Lone Wolf, which is known to grossly inflate damage. This doesn't work in a normal group, and you normally can't even use the skills in the first place before close to the end of Act 2 (which is already over half of the game).

The scaling point is an important one. I do not think it is an issue right now because the lack of damage situation can simply be remedied by cutting enemy resistances (going back to your chart now). The lack of scaling will be a major issue going forward if there is an expansion/DLC raising the level cap because casters plateau when the key skills are maxed out. This means that the only way you can improve your Fireball damage after maxing out Pyro is investing into ancillary skills like Two Handed and Huntsman, whereas physical classes get the benefit of the ancillary skills AND weapon scaling.



So my latest playthrough was a Lone Wolf duo of a Ranger and a Warrior with 2H. I went the crit route so I did have points in Scoundrel for C&D but this was just a cherry on top of the cake (mostly used outside of combat) because Warfare already catered for all of my mobility needs. Phoenix Strike for instant reposition, Blitz Attack is essentially a ranged attack with repositioning, Battering Ram for reposition with CC as an added bonus, Battle Stomp is essentially a ranged AOE attack with CC to boot, Crippling Blow as AOE to make sure you don't need to chase. All of these skills provide the required mobility and the fact that they do damage AND CC to boot makes them insane. I hardly ever needed to use my AP for moving and this was usually at the end of a fight to pick off stragglers. AP is obviously much more valuable in the beginning of a fight than at the end. Add in Attack of Opportunity often finishing off enemies before they can get away. Just nutty. By contrast, I would say that my Ranger was spending more AP walking to reposition because of line of sight issues (even with a proper pre-fight setup). My Rogue in an earlier playthrough was spending more AP to reposition for backstabs. So I do disagree that a warrior needs anything other than Warfare for mobility.

Options for mages are laughable by contrast.



Look, it's good that you can make it work, but as Sanctuary pointed out, this is late game stuff and most properly built characters breeze through everything post Driftwood. I am playing the game for the fourth time right now and there is a marked difference in difficulty between physical and magical damage builds for the reasons set out in my original post.

I have also been pondering Flay Skin, but: (i) scales with STR not INT; (ii) requires 3 in Poly; (iii) 5 turn cooldown; (iv) 3 AP. Does the nullify effect penetrate Magic Armour or do you need to burn it down first?

Thats true that ita post lvl 15. But I am just stating what it can be done in late game. It is still a new game and changes mifht comr. Just wanted to add something to the discussion. In the early game warrior was way better than my mage. My next run will be without lone wolf to see how it goes. BUT I rrally think testing more is still a valuable fact.